Introducing Dr. Jason Wersland

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 0:00

Welcome to the Five Codes Podcast, where we discuss evidence-based methods to elevate yourself to the next level through optimizing the way you look, move, perform, feel, and connect. Today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Dr. Jason Worsland, who is the founder of Therabody. Jason is one of the most thoughtful people that I've ever gotten to talk to. I think you're really going to enjoy his perspective as a founder, as a father, as somebody who's very much in the wellness and longevity space and who works with the best athletes and the best teams in the world. One of his main roles is teaching. He talks about teaching how the different modalities and how recovery works, and we especially get into central nervous system regulation, our parasympathetic and our nervous system, our states, how we are, how we how we can regulate those things, which is a really fascinating deep conversation. I tie it into surgery, I tie it into growth and longevity and what his personal routines are. And I think you're going to find this really interesting. I hope you enjoy our relatively wide-ranging conversation with Dr. Jason Worsland. Well, Dr. Jason, thank you for being here today. Very grateful for you for traveling up and spending some time.

SPEAKER_00 1:12

Thank you for hosting me. This has been amazing.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:13

Yeah, it's been really wonderful.

Designing a Recovery Protocol for Surgery

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:15

I'm going to jump right into it. And this uh my first question, the first thing I want to talk about really ties into something that we talked about earlier, talking about nervous system states and something you know a lot about, have thought a lot about, have talked to a lot of people about. And with you, having that knowledge of nervous system states and quite literally working with and working with the best athletes in the world, designing their recovery protocols, designing tools that they need for their specific needs. And in my world of surgery, surgical recovery, treating my patients like athletes, like we talked about a little bit. If you could design a therabody protocol for before, maybe even during, because I use that's a little spoiler alert. I use some during and after surgery, what would that protocol look like for you? But I'm really asking you to mix in some of the nervous system part of things. I don't think a lot of people think about it.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

Yeah. Well, I think that depends on what it is. You know, let's say it's a lower extremity, knee or hip or ankle or something like that. The the first thing that I want is what's the time frame between when I see that person and when they have it. So let's say it's a not ideal, but let's say it's a generally like a good window. I I want them to start treating their body as though they had the surgery before the surgery. So I want them to start thinking about how they what are they eating, what are they drinking, what's how what's their sodium intake, what's their inflammation, what's their pain levels. I wanted to keep their pain levels down. So if I kind of list all those things out, we have some basic things that deal with the nervous system. So the boots, the Largette boots, they cover a physical part of the body. But as we talked about earlier, there's some modalities that are built in those boots that are actually to help regulate your nervous system. And that stimulus in the nervous system downregulates. My goal for a patient is, and I think it's probably the same for you, is I want them to be in a parasympathetic state. I want them to be rest and digest, calm and relaxed as they go into that. Because as you you probably you know this way better than I do, but the the post-op outcomes are way better if they go into that. So, how can I get that person primed to the most ideal situation, that joint especially? Um, so I would do the the boots, especially if it's lower extremity, if it's upper extremity, shoulder, something like that, heat is always really good, keeps the blood flow moving. I think ice is sometimes overused when someone when people get injured, especially as as we get older, and you know, 35 is older. 30 is older, you know, when it comes to injuries. And I think sometimes they think, well, I'm not 60. So uh I think uh the the minimum minimal use of ice, but including heat and then other modalities that keep the blood flow moving, the physical, the physiology side of it, but then also implementing breath work, downtime, meditation, tea, things that can regulate your nervous system because I don't think we realize when we're in pain, I don't think we know how strong our bodies survive that and the mechanisms that it leans on for that. So I I think we min we underestimate that, and then it kind of backlashes us when we're trying to get better on the other side of that. So I like to have people start their routines, post-op routines, pre-op. Um smart goggles, we talked about that earlier. That just giving you a 15-minute down regulation to just kind of shut things out and be focused and intentional. I think I think I'm sure there's science to this, and you could probably talk to it better much better than I can, but I feel like there's a real there's real power in intention. And if you're aligned with the patient and the patient's aligned with what you're doing, and they understand what's going on, they won't have sympathetic spikes. Right. And then they can they they step into that, I feel like. So also there's an element that I'm really bullish about, and that's patients need to take care of their body. You're there to help repair the things that have happened to them in their life, but it's really their body, it's their life, and so I I I love that we've made products that don't require someone else to do it to you. So many of the things you can do on your own. Yeah, and I think there's a real power and intention in you thinking about what's going on with my body and how am I gonna treat that. And I don't think it's any different with surgery.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 5:53

Yeah, that's very interesting. I was thinking about that this morning before a surgery as I was cupping myself, thinking like, with their cups, thinking like it's really cool that I can do this to myself. And sometimes people will see them on my back and they're like, Well, who's doing that? You're not doing it yourself because they're on your back. And I'm like, Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, you brought up a couple of things in there that just make me want to run a little bit

A Motorcycle Accident and a New Relationship With Pain

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 6:12

in a good way. Um, talking about pain, right? You have a very unique knowledge of pain, it's driven parts of your life. You uh you have a deep understanding of it. How has uh what tell me about your unique knowledge of pain and how that's driven and shaped things for you, your relationship with it now?

SPEAKER_00 6:31

Yeah, I grew up playing sports, and I don't know that I ever really had a one of those season-ending injuries. I had a high ankle sprain, I tore my peroneal nerve on my right side, my proneal muscle, but other than that, I didn't have like joints and things. So I I'd like to say, I think up until I had my motorcycle accident, I don't think I'd experienced real pain. I'd cut my fingers a bunch of times and doing you know, just regular general things. But when I had that nerve pain, it was I became very acquainted with that side of life. And it was at the time it was interesting because I anyone that's been injured, you think, you know, why me and why is this happening to me? And in my role as a chiropractor and realizing what I was experiencing, it gave me a window into something that allows me to be empathetic and sympathetic with patients in a different way than I had been. And I still get emotional thinking about it because I remember feeling like this is not gonna end, like this, I don't know if I can live like this. And those thoughts you have, those are real. And when people have that kind of pain long over long periods of time, it just wears you out. And I started learning that like there are there's the reprieve that I would get when I would be when I was able to step into a parasympathetic state just to try and sleep. I though it's etched in my soul, and I don't know that I'll ever forget that. And I think the my role and the things that we've that we've invented and worked on over the years has just keeps bringing it to the surface. You know, I I remember that. I remember that, and I speak with other people. I have testimonials when people say, Oh my god, if I didn't have that thing, I wouldn't have, you know, X, Y, Z. And I feel that. I I recognize that. So pain's a big motivator. We make a lot of choices based off of avoiding pain or the pain we're experiencing. And I, you know, Tony Robbins talks about how much we how much more we do to avoid pain than we do to gain pleasure. Right. And so for me, I feel like I need to put my money where my mouth is and not just talk about dealing with pain, but really give something that people can deal with. So being able to have a physical product, I can hand you and say, use this, it's gonna make the pain less, whatever that is, whatever level that is. Um, it's funny that you say that because I I do recognize when people see me that that's the connection. Like, oh, you had that, and I had that too, and it helped me. And so it's a real blessing. I never thought I'd say that, but it's been a blessing.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 9:13

Yeah, but well, I mean, that's a mature perspective, right? A whole different animal and look at all the people that have benefited along the ways. My patients are some of them, right? That's kind of where I have this with you because I've realized actually somewhat through the use of your products, that in my pre and post-operative situations with my patients, like I'm very akin to managing pain for what I'm doing, right? I'm very proactive as far as doing long acne nerve blocks, using non-narcotic or opioid-based medications. I I don't want my patients taking those things. It makes their experience better. And honestly, I'm to a point where with almost near certainty, they're not going to need any pain pills afterwards. It's a very comfortable experience from what I'm doing. But there's this whole other element of things that they come in with prior injuries, and then their movement patterns change when they're here or they're and I've learned again, partially through the use of your of your products, that like like literally sitting next to us right now is a patient who had surgery with me and she's in the compression boots. Like her, this was like her one request was to have these available to her for afterwards, and and uh it's changed her entire experience, right? This is I'm not just saying this is literally true, sitting next door to us, you know. Um, and so you know, I've learned a lot about that, but I've also uh I've my eyes have been open to the whole patient's experience, not just this like very myopic view that I have of what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_00 10:33

Yeah, hour with them or whatever.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 10:35

Exactly, yep, yep. So um, you know, I that's benefited a lot of people. Um and it's not just percussion and it's this it's all of the different things being mixed together, um, you know, compression, what we're talking about here. And that leads to one of my other questions for you a little bit,

What a Theragun Is Actually Doing

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 10:52

is just like explaining to us, understanding. I think a lot of people think that, you know, a therragon is just like hammering on a muscle, right? That's what it's doing. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot more happening than that. And um even when we talk about nervous system and nervous system states. So can you just kind of run us through what's happening with a percussive um you know element placed on muscle fascia and things like that and nerves? What's happening there?

SPEAKER_00 11:19

It's a it's a um functional use of our body's protective mechanisms, I think is the easiest kind of long, nerdy way to say that. But the it's a neuromuscular treatment device. It acts on the Golgi tendon. And if anyone understands what the Golgi tendon is, it's a protective mechanism. It's one of the ways that our nervous system can communicate with skeletal muscles. It helps it understand where we are in space. So if you start losing your communication from that thing to our brain, then you trip and you're not you're not aware of where you're at. Your range of motion is different. You reach out to grab something and now you pull the muscle. So it's not just pounding the muscles, it's acting on three things it's acting on frequency, amplitude, and torque. So the frequency is how many times that touches you in a second. We all kind of understand what frequency is, but it's important to understand what the frequency is. It's 40 hertz. That's a special number. And when I have to tell you this, when I discovered that, I didn't know what it meant. I just knew that that was what it needed to be because I saw a universal result of response from everyone when I used that frequency. But I didn't know what it was, and it's it's it's in the low end of gamma. And if you can look in to see what gamma does, it's a freeing experience when you get into those gamma spaces. So I when you do that enough to your body, and if I if I just used the frequency on your body, meaning I just I wasn't necessarily treating tissue, I was just stimulating your nervous system with a frequency, you'd fall asleep in several minutes, six, seven minutes, because that stimulus on the body activates the parasympathetic and it's almost like someone shot you with a tranquilizer. So it has that effect. That's one thing. Then the next thing is the amplitude, which is the distance it travels to go on and off the body. Super important because our body is really, really smart and it can accommodate to anything. So if if people are listening and are watching and they have a watch or earbuds or a necklace or a bracelet, shoes or pants, anything that's touching your skin, your body's not aware of that because if it was, it'd be really annoying for all day long, right? That's true. So it's it's accommodating to that information. And if it's nice and soft and it lays on your hand, your body accommodates it to it really quickly. But if it's uncomfortable, your pants are tight, you just can't quite adjust to that. It's because it's not comfortable to your tissue and you can't accommodate. So I wanted something that my body could not accommodate to. And in order to do that, it needed to come all the way off the body and back on. So if it was a lower amplitude, it's not coming off the body line. Yeah, it's like vibration, which is not a bad modality. We have a lot of vibration, it's just not the same as percussive motion up and down. And then the last thing is torque. Why this is important is if you and I are working on ourselves, and say we're getting in our hip flexors and our quads, and we're loading that pheragon, you lose the amplitude and the and the frequency because the pressure from your body is changing the science. So over the years, we've got to a point now where you don't lose our amplitude, you don't lose the frequency because the torque is strong enough, it'll drive through that. Now you can if you're trying to, but the point is that it's

Up and Down Regulating Your Nervous System

SPEAKER_00 14:48

not. So what what does all that mean? It means it's activating your parasympathetic nervous system, which is down regulating. It's gonna slow the heart rate because the body's getting really calm and relaxed, but it can also activate. I I tell people this if we brought, we were talking about this earlier about um the just the instinctive things with us as we were younger when we're kids, like making choices and stuff. But if you had uh talking about sleep, we were talking about some of your people at the office, but if we had five five-year-olds and we wanted them to run over to the park as fast as they could, and the winner gets a try, a treat or something, there's a there's something we'd do to get them excited. We'd show them the prize, they'd have their running, I'd have my fast shoes on, you know, all the things that make them amped up to run over there. Now, on the other hand, if we needed them to come in and take a nap, what would we do? Talk a little quieter, turn the lights down, maybe the heat up a little bit, because we're activating that part of their nervous system that needs to calm down. It's the same thing with etheragon. If I want to activate your nervous system for our workout later, I'll be quick and move it in certain areas, I'll hit the nervous system and the Golgi to get it ready to move. What I'm gonna do, what we would do after the workout is I want to downregulate. I'm gonna use it slower, on a lower speed, with a different frequency so the body can downregulate. It's a long answer. Yeah. And it's been challenging. But it's, I think if I had a 30 seconds in an elevator, I'd tell them it's a it's a neuromuscular massage device that activates your nervous system.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 16:22

So you but the thinking of it, because I haven't thought of it this way till right now, really, um, as uh the ability to up or down regulate. Yeah. That's an important part of that.

SPEAKER_00 16:32

We talked about it at lunch, but that's usually what I'm teaching these people because it's a it it looks really um intuitive and it feels that way sometimes. But when you want something specific out of there, like I'll show you today, but I could actually make you jump higher. Like there's things I can do to you to make you jump higher. We can test it, I'll treat you, and then you'll test again, you'll jump higher. It's not gonna last for a long time, but just like anything else, if you do it over time, yeah, you start implementing it into your workout, you're gonna start jump higher. So there is definitely a performance aspect. That's why we're in teams and athletes all over the world, they just haven't found out the other side of it. How to use it to downregulate, how to use it to sleep, how to use it to heal. It turns on the bot part of the body that helps the body heal.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 17:20

And this is what you're working with, some of these the biggest teams in the world, the highest value teams in the world. You're

Nervous System Control and Peak Performance

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 17:26

helping them do these things, right? Yeah. And that's would you say that's your current focus is more on nervous system regulation than on performance? Yeah. But they're in but they're more interested in performance.

SPEAKER_00 17:35

Yeah, of course they are. But I I, you know, you we talk about this. I know we believe the same thing, but if you can control your parasympathetic, you perform better and you're sympathetic. If you can manage that parasympathetic and be in tune with that breath work and where you're at and lighting, all the things, then when it comes time to perform, you're so much better. I it's kind of a funny comparison, but it's a little like red light. You know, I was talking to a basketball player, a professional basketball player the other day, and he asked me, tell me about red light. And I said, You play streetball. Yeah, I play streetball. You like it? Love it. It's a hack, it's hack city. Your people are beating you up. You don't fall in the like, think about the environment that you're in when you're playing streetball. Now take the same team and put them on a professional court with referees, nicer balls, good rims. They can play a cleaner game. It's kind of the same thing. If you implement these things in the right way, it's a cleaner life. It's a it's a more consistent way to regulate your nervous system instead of you know artificially increasing your sympathetic nervous system by whatever you're doing. Yeah. And then the same on the other side: pills, medication, all the things that people take to artificially put them in a parasympathetic state. The further you're away from the real connection of those things, you being in control of that, I really believe that's dis-ease.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 18:59

Yeah, I love that. I I uh that's articulating something that I

Why I Skip Coffee on Surgery Days

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 19:04

felt for a long time really well. Um, for example, on a surgical day for me, and you know, these are my days, these are my most important days, right? I don't drink coffee on that day, which is blows a lot of people's minds. They're like, that's the day I think you would drink coffee. Yeah. I drink coffee on the other days. Um, you know, it's a nice treat, but on when it's OR time, it's like I I want to be reliant on nothing for my nervous system state. Um, I want to be reliant on nothing that is isn't inside of me. I want to be my locus of control for where I'm at, which is, you know, I have I've had to learn what that is between breath work and um different again, breath work it sounds a lot like some of the your products in that I can go up or I can go down with it, right? Yeah. Um, or how I exercise when I exercise, what my flow state entry looks like, what my heat and cold, like all those things, when you say that it fits in so well. I'm like, oh yeah, all of those things can up or down regulate depending on when and how you use them. Yeah. So I love what your expected outcome is. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, where you're at in your day, even like what time of day it is sometimes, right? Yeah, what the light's doing and and things like that. I love that. So that articulates. You just helped me like file that away. Like, this is what's happening here. I love that. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 20:09

That could I feel like a lot of that's probably just in there with you. Yeah. I mean, I'm hyper-focused on this, you know, like this is what I've been focusing on for many years. So hopefully I can articulate it.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 20:20

The quest for peak performance never ends, but I guess I now I feel like one of the Premier League soccer teams, the quest for peak performance. But then you're telling me, focus on this other side. You got to be able to downshift, downregulate. Um, Dr. Andy Galpin is a really interesting character, like has a really interesting perspective on this, where he talks about even just like, I think this is what we're gonna do later. I was really excited to hear this. But like after your workout, whatever your normal workout, your daily workout, the thing you do just because you know you got to do it, it's because some are harder than others, right? But every time after you do that, have a focus shift into your downregulated parasympathetic nerve. Let yourself recover. Give yourself a demonstrative anchor that the workout's over and it's time to shift into this new thing. And I think that's what you're gonna teach me later, right? We'll see. Yeah. I don't know if I could teach you much, but yeah, I'm excited to, I'm definitely excited to experience it. Yeah, we'll get we'll get in the pool workout and do it after that. I'm feeling kind of sick. Yeah. So tying in a little bit of this, like working with the highest performers, working with people with injuries, your patients that you've had. You've got you've had a lot of spectrum of this. I'm curious your opinion on when all of these, I'm gonna use

Can Biohacking Make You More Fragile?

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 21:33

the word biohacking kind of like with a pure negative connotation, when some of these biohacks might actually make us more fragile. Is there do you think about that? You know, where it's like, okay, I'm gonna do red light and compression and I'm gonna do ice and cold and and heat and and sometimes when it it might just be like, well, you just need time. You just need to like sit, like maybe passively rest and recover. Yeah. Is that a thing? Do you think about things that way?

SPEAKER_00 21:59

Yeah, I do. Um in in this world we live in now, I believe there's there's a million opportunities for workouts. I could Google anything and do anything in a w but if I wanted to find something to help me down regulate, that'd be a hard stretch. So I feel like we do overperform and and to me biohacking for a long time was how is what I'm doing making me better or hacking this idea to shortcut to where I need to get to. And with the nervous system, there are no shortcuts. You can cheat it a little bit along the way, but it you you won't you're never gonna win.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 22:51

It's gonna catch up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:52

Yeah. You just I can tell you from my own experience and seeing other people's experiences, you're you're just you won't win. And I think people, yes, and long answer, short answer to that is yes, I think you can biohack to a fault. I think sometimes the most simple biohacking is what the American Indians did for many years. Just breathing and sitting with a group of people, and it was, you know, a friend of mine taught me it's the people you're with, the air you breathe, the water you drink, and the the the food you eat. Like those things are so fundamental to us that I think sometimes we overlook that as a hack, as a biohack. Are you eating right foods? Are you eating at the right times? Are you reading the right amounts? Are you eating in the right light? Are you eating in the right, like there's so many things that I think if we just tweaked a little bit, we wouldn't need to hack. Yeah, you know, we wouldn't need to be biohacking. If you just did what you're supposed to do, you wouldn't need to do that. So I've I've I don't I like how you said that because it's not necessarily a positive thing, you know. Like I you can, I believe, if you're not listening to your body, you can biohack to a to a to a fault. Yeah.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 24:02

Well, so with that knowledge, it's probably controversial that I said that, but I no, I I agree too. I I always think of this like being anti-fragile, kind of hard to kill. And you know, I talk about this with my kids all the time. Let's we're gonna be hard to kill, you know, metaphorically and literally, hard to kill. Um, but I I wonder if some of the, you know, yeah, some like am I be I don't want to be like just like I said with caffeine before surgery, I don't want to be reliant on anything outside of myself. But that's also not saying they can't help. So I think I'm just always trying to feather out like where's the right amount of these things. Like I don't want to have to get in the sauna and red light in the morning to function normally, but I also do love doing that in the morning. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's this, you know, where's the right line? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:44

I think the I I feel like the the more we're connecting these biomarkers to the modalities we have, I feel like we'll be able to find the sweet spot. But I also feel like it's a little bit of a moving target, how old you are, how many kids you have, where you live, like all those things. I think it's so important for us to understand even our bowel movements, like just knowing when, what helps, what doesn't help, where you sleep, what pillows you use. I think all of those things are so important to listen to your body. It's fascinating to me sometimes. I talk with people and they're just so disconnected from that. I don't know what pillow I sleep. They just don't know. They they're not aware of those things. And I feel like if it's in your life, you you you need to know what effect it's having on your body. Yeah.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 25:32

Do you have a

Pillows, Travel Essentials, and Beating Jet Lag

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 25:33

pillow? Do you have a favorite pillow? I do have a pillow.

SPEAKER_00 25:35

What is it? It's a little solid, thicker one. I I wish I could remember the name of the brand. I'll send it to you. What was your process to choose that pillow? What'd it look like?

SPEAKER_02 25:43

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 25:46

Well, I have I'm from the outside of my shoulder to my ear, this space is much larger than it is for a lot of other people. Okay. And I can't, I can't collapse. When I collapse, I end up having nerve issues and hands fall asleep. And so for me, I wanted something that I could I side sleep. I can't sleep on my back. If I sleep on my back, I'll wake up. I breathing or something, I just can't by side sleep. So once I realized, okay, I side sleep, I need a big enough pillow that I can roll from one side to the other and it doesn't wake my wake me up. Yeah. So there's a lot of things. I've used the cervical pillows, I've had, I've had uh uh flaxseed, is that what they make? The they make the seed pillows? I don't know. Yeah, I had I've had, I'm not kidding. I have a room of pillows in my house. Okay, and I landed on this one, and it is amazing.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 26:41

So you encourage people to take that journey for themselves.

SPEAKER_00 26:44

Yes, yes, you gotta pillow. I I I am a hot sleeper, so I've got to have something that breathes. So the outside layer of this pillow doesn't stick to me. So I have the right pillowcase with the right pillow underneath, and I get hot. My wife doesn't. She has feather pillows, and I can't have those feather pillows around me. I just get really warm. But that's an that's a journey that I went on. And I and I travel, we talked earlier, I travel a ton, and the times that I don't take that pillow with me, I I pay the price. You usually take it? I usually will bring it with me. Stuff it's it it's c it gets collapsible, so I stuff it in a gym bag. Okay. I just bring a gym bag full of pillow.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 27:22

What what are your other like unique travel essentials? Do you have anything else like that? When somebody who travels internationally a lot for sleep? Just anything. Just anything? Like, what do you travel with? That's like I take this, it's not just like your genes, you know, or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 27:38

Uh vitamins. I I got I always have my vitamins. Uh I travel with ketone IQ. I that really helps me. How do you use it? Um if I'm traveling, it helps me get through the first day or so of jet lag. Like if I need just an extra couple hours, it's not an artificial one. It just kind of keeps me alert enough. Sure. But then the fall off for me is super gradual and natural, and I can fall asleep within a couple hours of taking that. So for me, it's just there. I don't rely on it, but it's there in case I have meetings or late calls or something and I gotta be alert. That's the that's one thing. I take my Theragun with me all the time. I have my my smart goggles with me. I have my sleep mask. I don't, I'm not a sleep mask guy, but I will use that on the airplane. Yeah. I think for me, when I travel, it's what I do when I travel. It's getting up out of the airplane. If I'm not sleeping in the sheet in the chair, I'll get up and move every 20 minutes or so. Just get up, I'll take the theragon and and work myself. The, the, the, when I finally get to my hotel, like I did here when I got here, I that the first thing I do is find my Theragun, get in my workout clothes or something comfortable, and I'll get on the floor and I just stretch and move. And I wake my body up. And then I'll get up and I'll just jump up and down. If I have a trampoline or there's a gym or something, I'll do that. But I just want to get things moving. My I look at my discs, they need hydration, and the only thing that helps that is the movement. So I feel like if I can get that, I sleep better, I feel better the next day, it doesn't drag on for me. Pillow, definitely. Uh the right um my my supplements, I have to take the basics that I take with me. And then I hydrate. I'm just non-stop drinking water. All the other things I don't I don't really have like a kit other than my therabody stuff.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 29:29

Yeah. What about you?

SPEAKER_00 29:30

What do you take?

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 29:31

Well, let's see. I very similar. The

Ketones and Creatine Around Surgery

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 29:34

ketones thing is funny. Um, that really ties in. I start, I I'll use ketones myself, kind of around surgery sometimes, as um, I would just call this like a metabolic flexibility for me, right? I like that. So I'm trying again not to use coffee in the morning. Sometimes I'll take like Laird's functional mushrooms, like as you know, just like a little adaptogen, basically. That's kind of like my coffee alternative those mornings. When you mix it like with your coffee, just straight, I just you know, like mix it in water, you know. Oh, really? I'm saying on surgery day when I'm not having caffeine, just like just mushrooms, because it has like a kind of a richer flavor, like coffee, and you know, so it's kind of a nice little alternative. And there's this thing in my brain that's almost Pavlovian now. I know when I smell and taste just that by itself, it's go time, like surgery day. I love that. You know, yeah. Um, so that's like my like coffee alternative, but I'll use ketones as well. I use audacious nutrition. I like ketone salts um instead of esters. Yeah, there's like a mix-in. Um, they have a caffeine-free version, they also have some with caffeine, they have like cocoa and tea and instant coffee. Um, but I also use those for my patients and I start them on those 24, 48 hours prior to surgery. Before. Before, for some reasons that you're doing it when you're traveling, and then I have them continue it for several days after surgery because ketones are neurostabilizing, right? They're one of their best things is to stabilize our central nervous system, which is why people like Dominic Diagostina, who's like the ketone king, he's an incredible researcher on this. Um, you know, has that's why they're used for epilepsy in kids. He showed like oxygen toxicity and uh divers with rebreaters. Yeah, it's incredible. Like it prevents seizures in people who are like in high oxygen compression, like hyperbrioric type chambers. Um, it's it's really neurostabilizing, which is why for a long time, like a ketogenic diet was like is and can still be one of the main treatments for epilepsy. It's so neurostabilizing. So for me, with my patients having anesthesia, and I'm using a very neuroprotective anesthesia protocol nonetheless, but I want them as solid and stable as they can be so they can recover from that neuroinflammation that I'm giving them from their little surgery and their little anesthesia. But I love the ketones for that. Um, but I haven't that that's good for me. So I'm like, I don't take them when I travel necessarily. I take them like more around surgery. So that's a good heck. Me, creatine is one of my pre, it's the same thing. I tie that into my patients. Um, but for myself, I use that when I travel, and I'll usually kind of double my dose a little bit because I'm not sleeping as well, maybe at first.

SPEAKER_00 32:05

Good idea. I never thought about that.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 32:06

But I'm a I'm a like light food and movement, those are my three levers to pull when I'm traveling. My, I mean, my there are guns in the truck right out here. Like I it's never far away from me, honestly. It's always it's kind of a joke, it's very beat up now, too. So beat up, and and uh, but albeit like my kids' soccer games with it and things like that, and everybody's like, why do you have that? But it's funny, if I'm wearing my jujitsu shirt or my jujitsu hat, people are like, Oh, I get it. But if I'm not wearing that, they're like, it's weird that you carry that around all the time. It's very funny.

SPEAKER_00 32:35

Um we haven't done a good job of associating general wellness with a tarragon.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 32:39

It's very much for athletes, yeah. Yeah, that's the that's the association. It's like, oh, you're kind of weird. Even my kids get embarrassed a little bit, but um, but then I like the the I'll be proud of it when they're older. The Theremask is a travel favorite of mine for like kind of initiating those sleep stages. I really like that.

SPEAKER_00 32:54

Yeah, yeah. We put we put vibration in the head strap to help with that as well.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 33:00

Yep, yeah, and I definitely feel that. Then I uh then it doubles as my eye mask usually on the plane. So it kind of does does both really well. Yeah. Um, but I don't I don't take a pillow or anything like that.

SPEAKER_00 33:12

I should that's to me, that's the only that really is one of the things that that disrupts my sleep more than anything, is just having the right pillow. The right pillow. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 33:21

Light for me. I do take one I think the weird thing is I'll take um like the same tape that I tape my wrists and fingers with for jujitsu. I'm very diligent about protecting my hands when I roll. Of course. Um but I have that tape in my bag and I'll like tape up the lights in the rooms or whatever. Really? So there's no LEDs. Just cover them? Yeah, just so there's no no light. Direct LEDs. Yeah, yeah. And it's you know, it might be like the smoke detector or whatever, but just like I cover up all the LEDs or on the TV or the thermostat. Oh my gosh, that's a great idea. It's just like literally black athletic tape. Yeah. So then you have athletic tape if you need it for something too. I never thought about that.

SPEAKER_00 33:57

And there's been so many times I've been in a hotel and the all the lights are off except for this thing. Yes, the red thing out there. Yeah.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 34:03

I'll give you a roll tonight unless my super stash. Um so uh this kind of leads into another question with a huge knowledge base, having been around the best athletes and best teams, treating patients and where you're at in your life now, mid-50s.

Inside Jason’s Daily Wellness Routine

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 34:19

What does your routine look like? What does your like just wellness routine look like? Just walk me through. And I could I if I would love to hear literally everything from when I wake up to but like what are your highlights? Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 34:32

Uh should we do Monday? Sure. Okay, we'll do a Monday. Monday, I uh get up at 6 and I'm working out and I'm done by 8. What's your workout? Uh Mondays are pretty pretty intense. We do, I have a trainer and he takes me through like a a lot of different functional cross training movements. So uh this week we did um uh cable rotation, hips stable. So I weren't rotating my hips, I was just rotating through my abs. Yeah. Torched my abs.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 35:06

Yeah, dissociating your upper and lower body. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:09

We did uh we did one armed uh barbell thrusts, we did so it's a it's a pretty intense. Is that on like a landmine? Uh-huh. Yeah. Yep, yeah, yep. And then we uh what a he So that's a heavier day for you. I think I was talking to to Tyler today. I was saying we did three-way lunges, so he'll go ten out, ten back, uh-huh, just regular lunges, then I have to stand in one spot and do reverse lunges. So I go back and back with, and then he has me do side lunges with a dumbbell, with a kettlebell. So we do down with kettlebell up and then swing out to the other side. So that it's a pretty intense workout. Yeah. So Mondays and Wednesdays, I usually kill it pretty hard at the gym in the morning. And then I come home and I'll I'll rinse off quickly. I used to cold plunge until I start realizing it was sort of counterproductive for me. But I come home now and I'll take a nap. So I'll lay down for 30 minutes and I'll just till 8:30 or so I set an alarm and I'll just close my eyes and I just I feel so amazing.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 36:15

You're able to do it that quickly afterwards, huh? That takes some practice, I would imagine.

SPEAKER_00 36:18

Well, I think we know you and I have we talked about this, but when I'm done with my workout, I immediately start trying to control my breath, and I'm really uh conscious of that. I get in my car because I it's not far, it's a bit closer than your office, but I drive. So there's a there's a thing kind of Pavlovian that I I get in and I put my cover my seats with towels, I'm all sweaty and stuff, and then I just sit in my car for a second, and I just think, okay, I'm eight to ten minutes away from home. I'm gonna downregulate so the time I don't turn the radio on, I'll have the windows down, I want to smell I live in Manhattan Beach, so fresh air I'm smelling as I get to the house. Get to the house, I walk in, there's a place I lay, and it's just it's my thing. Set a timer, I'm up at 8:30. Um I'm I usually I've been working, I uh there's a brand. Um they have an amazing uh electrolyte that just mixes well and tastes really good. Amino. Uh pure amino?

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 37:20

Yes, pure aminos.

SPEAKER_00 37:21

Yeah, they have one that I've been using recently that's amazing. C Susana's has one as well. They have a mango that's really good. So I'll make sure you want to get details. I make sure I have that with me at the gym, especially this time of year, because it gets really hot and humid in that gym. Yeah. So I want to make sure I'm hydrated. If I'm not, I can't fall asleep later when I get home. Interesting. It's like my body just needs something. So I gotta make sure I'm super hydrated. Go go home, go to sleep. First thing I do when I wake up after I do that is I get something in my stomach. A quick shake. I have uh a uh man, I wish I was prepared for all this. I got a buddy of mine at yard, the yard in Hermosa gave me a really good. It's made from natural products, it's not artificial. It's like a protein shake. Yeah, protein shake. Yep. So I'll take a protein shake, and then I'm usually shower and I'm working and doing my thing. I usually have I have water with me all the time. On those, on Mondays and Wednesdays, I I will get in the boots in the evening, but I will hit myself with my Theragon several times that day.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 38:29

So you're like with you throughout the day.

SPEAKER_00 38:31

Yep, I have it with me. I'll actually set a timer on my phone. So I it every three hours. So 8:30, 930, 10:30, so 10:30, 1.30, 3:30. I want to hit it so I'll sleep better, my recovery is better, and I'll be able to go running on Tuesdays because Tuesdays and Thursdays use my run day. Okay. We were joking earlier. I don't run, like I sprint about a mile and then I come back. It's about I can't run. Me and Tyler were laughing about how we get like big bodies can't run. Uh so for me on those days, I want to make sure that I have good nutrients. I want to have a really good food throughout the day. Have my vitamins usually at night before I go to sleep, so take them right before I go to bed.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 39:14

Um you're thinking about your your Tuesday and Thursday on Monday and Wednesday. Yeah. You're already getting enough for those. Yeah. And then during your work day, so you've got your timer set on your watch for your Theragun. You're in meetings, you're talking to people, are you like, excuse me? And then or I'll do it right in the meeting. Me too.

SPEAKER_00 39:34

I'll do it right in the Zoom. Me too. Yeah. No, I've yeah. And they're quiet enough now you can, and it's not too much of a disruption. And no one really says anything. But yeah, if my hand's- Well, yeah, you're the guy. You're the one that can't say anything. They're like, oh, of course. Yeah.

Treating Muscles in a Neutral Position

SPEAKER_00 39:47

The what I I think one of the things that people probably don't pay attention to, that if you got really granular with me, you would, is that during the day I want to treat my muscles in a neutral position because I'm not performing. So I'm just treating the muscles. I I'm not trying to get into a regulated state necessarily. I'm not thinking parasympathetic. I'm just thinking I need these muscles to get blood flow and to be treated so that I'm not sore tomorrow. So my low back doesn't hurt. So what I try to do is I'll slide out of the end of my chair where my hamstrings are nice and loose, knees are bent, and I can get underneath there and get my hamstrings, and they're just like mashed potatoes. They're just moving around, a lot of blood flow. My quadriceps, I'll never do my quads with my knee bent. I'll have my leg extended, the quad will be nice and neutral and do the same thing. That's what I think is probably one of the cues, the clues that I give to teams and athletes is like you need to treat the muscles when you're just treating muscles in a neutral position. If my bicep's extended or my biceps flexed, it needs to be in a neutral position. So I get some, I don't know, what do you call that? Neutral tonicity or something like that, where it's just like it's not, you're not preparing for anything, you're just treating the muscle. And the muscle really loves that when it's in a neutral position. So I try to get my body in that neutral position. If I'm standing, I'll shift to one leg, get that glute on the side that's not being loaded. So that to me is probably one of the hacks, or we talked about hacks earlier. Yeah, yeah. That's one of the things that that I think is really important for me that I pay attention to. My trap, I I don't, my traps are not relaxed when I'm standing up. I just feel it. So if I lay on the ground, now they're relaxed, I'm laying down, and I can just feel them like just jelly. So I'll take the tharagon and I just rest the therragon on the floor. I don't have to hold it really. I just guide it onto my traps. Those are really weird things that I do, you know, just trying to treat the muscle throughout the day in a neutral position. The end of the day, I get in my boots, I do at least an hour, and I'll just sit there and catch up on my emails. I have a computer moves up and down. That's what mine does. Yeah, yeah. Yep. I have to slide it sometimes. Uh I have my therm back on. I have a pimp thing that I use, a halo that I'll hold sometimes when I'm just chilling. I'll have so on a good night for an hour, I'll do mask, my mask glow, red light, the pimp blue ring, therm back, and my boots, and I I try to get it an hour of that in.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 42:18

So I hear in there two dedicated hours in the morning to work out, plus another hour of like nap and eat time, and another hour dedicated at night. So that's a significant portion of your time you're putting that's that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 42:32

When you say that, it's so funny because I don't think about that because I'm multitasking most of the other times in the morning. I'm not like I I need that 30 minutes to just get that off my out of my energy. I did that. Now I'm gonna focus on being who I want to be the rest of the day because I kind of did my that's my time. Yeah, that's my golden hour, sort of like my time. So it's funny when you say that because I never thought about it being that money, that man, that much time.

Protecting Your Mornings and the Seasons of Life

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 43:00

Yeah, well, and but it mixes in it because you know I do similar things with my gun or like I do push-ups and kettlebell swings while I'm making dinner and things like that, trying to mix it in because it kind of like doesn't count, but I'm getting these things done that I, you know, make me feel good or that I sometimes I just know I need to do or whatever. But I do a very similar thing where like the morning is mine. And it for me, my 8:30, like waking up from my workout, like at that point, I know that if I didn't get it done by that point, it's I may not happen. Yeah, right. Like that was like anything that needs to get done, is that's the time. After that, I belong to my patients or my surgery or family kids. Yeah, then later in the day it becomes family, and that's I'm yours. And I don't I've learned that this is like my maturity moment, which I'm sure when I reflect back in 10 years, like I used to really try to like, well, I'm gonna still multitask. I'm like, these are I don't want to multitask when I'm with my kids, and I want to because I want to get stuff done, but yeah, it took me an embarrassingly. Long time to realize that actually.

SPEAKER_00 44:02

I feel that. Yeah. Dr. Chestnut. I feel that because I'm I'm older now. My kids are older now. So I look back on those times where I was doing that. And sure there's success that came from it, but you know, I I don't know what my kids are gonna have to go to therapy for it or not, you know.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 44:20

No, no. I mean, this is a this is the seasons of life, right? This idea that and you know, we could talk about life balance and things like that, but if we're both being honest, there's that hasn't always been that way. It can't be that way. You can't be at the peak of where you're at in your life and have been actually balanced. Like there's seasons where your kids are the priority, there's seasons where your business is the priority, there's seasons where your body's the priority. They can switch relatively quickly, you know, monthly or quarterly or whatever, but you know, that that's just the truth of it, right?

SPEAKER_00 44:53

Yeah, I love how you said that. It's true, it's real.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 44:56

It's seasons of life, and it makes sense. Like it's not always sunny, you know. Like we love it when it's sunny right now, but uh we know that another season's coming and it won't be that case. But that doesn't make it a bad season or less special or whatever, because we really enjoy the heck out of the sun when it's here, you know. You live in a place where it's sunny all the time. Best weather in the world. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean, I've always it it again took me a while to think about things that way too. Cause I've obviously had seasons where I was like, oh shoot, when I look back, like, yeah, I wasn't as present with my kids as I wish I would have been, but now I get to be more because I was then, you know, like it is what it is. You have to forgive yourself, right?

SPEAKER_00 45:34

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Part of the personal work.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 45:36

Yeah, but hearing the like three or four hours a day, I'm like, what a that that's incredible. You know, that's incredible that you get

Sauna, Cold Plunge, and Contrast Therapy

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 45:43

get to do that.

SPEAKER_00 45:43

I didn't even mention sauna and hot tub. I get in the sauna every night.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 45:47

You do? Yeah, every night. Is that when does that fit in?

SPEAKER_00 45:50

Uh it's it I usually turn it on around 7 30. I just have a timer on my phone that goes off and I know and I'll just turn it on. It takes about an hour and a half to get to the temperature that I want. So anywhere between 9 30 and 10 30.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 46:04

So it's right pre-bed then.

SPEAKER_00 46:06

Right pre-bed, yeah. And I'll depending on where I'm at, uh Tuesdays and Thursdays, I'll cold plunge first and then get in the sauna. Um that's usually the only days, and then Saturdays or Sundays, I'll especially if I'm home, I'll do it this weekend. But I'll do like a real good two hours of contrast. Nice. So I'll do cold, hot, cold, hot, cold, hot, and then I'll do cold to end. Probably go down for a walk on the beach or something and let the sun kind of warm me up. Ground yourself a little bit, yeah. Yeah, so those it's funny when you say that, I start thinking about it. I do a lot of things. Yeah. Yeah. But it's just part of my lifestyle, you know?

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 46:50

Yeah, that's great. With with the um, you mentioned this too about not doing cold on lifting days. And I think I know the answer, but I'm just gonna why are you not? You said it may be counterproductive. What do you mean by that?

SPEAKER_00 47:03

Yeah, I I don't know how to explain how I felt after it. Um, but I started hearing that that it it's counterproductive for the antigenic anabolic side of the body where you want to build. And I'm at a point now where I I need all the muscle I can have, you know, like so. I want to pay attention to that. Um, and once I started applying it and not doing it on those days, I actually feel better.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 47:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 47:31

So when I implement, like on Monday, I'll finish the day with a sauna because I and I know the next day I'm gonna run. So I'm I already feel super good when I'm out to run. When I come home after the run on Tuesdays, I'll wait till I've cooled down and then I'll get in the cold plunge. And I'll just do cold plunge. I won't use the sauna to warm myself back up. So I want the controlled trauma on Tuesdays to be me having to warm myself back up. I won't get in the shower till I'm done. I have my coffee or whatever. I won't have any of that stuff. I just naturally want my body to acclimate. Laundry, emails, or whatever before I get in the shower. Those are that that's a controlled moment as well on Tuesdays and Thursdays. And Saturday's usually when I do the long one. I'll do that. I'll get up, work out, or go for a run, ride a bike, I'll get on my Peloton, I'll watch, I usually catch up with a lot of Premier League games on YouTube and stuff just to see what happened that week. That's usually I'll get a little bit of something moving in on Saturday, but then I'll do it's usually threes. I'll do three of each. Yeah. Three back and forth, hot, cold, hot, cold.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 48:37

Love that. Yeah. What um do you is your sauna a traditional sauna?

SPEAKER_00 48:41

Hot sauna, yeah.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 48:42

Yeah, running it via the app. Yeah. I like that.

SPEAKER_00 48:45

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've thought about we had a we had a we were we were looking at some red light panels, and I was gonna put a red light panel, and I think you have some in yours. Yeah, I'd love to see that, but I I couldn't find any that that were um built for the heat that could be in a hot sauna and can be. I did that research for you. Did you?

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 49:04

It took me a long time to find the right ones.

SPEAKER_00 49:06

I when you did that, I saw that, I was like, that's not common.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 49:10

Right.

SPEAKER_00 49:11

I've been like we talked about it, I've been to training rooms around the world. No one has that.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 49:16

Right. And I've been very impressed. I've had multiple ones and the ones that I have now. Um, because some of them you'll find in uh infrared sauna too, you know, where they're like, you have to tolerate maybe 150, 160 Fahrenheit, and they do okay. I mean, that's the whole thing with the red light, it's got to dissipate heat, right? Like it has to. And um, these ones I've been super impressed. I'll run them. I I keep my sauna at 212, 100 Celsius, and they on the ceiling of that 212 degree sauna are doing just fine. So yeah, they're pretty impressible.

SPEAKER_00 49:49

And your thermostat's probably at middle.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 49:52

My thermostat's 18 inches off the ceiling or something like that. Down from the ceiling, okay. Yeah. All right. Yep. So it's, you know, probably a little bit warmer where they're living. I have some vertically on the sides and some on the ceiling, and my sauna folds up to be a workout space as well. It's meant to be a workout space. Oh, yeah, I saw that. So I can train in there and I do that, you know, fairly often. I mean, talk about it's a great place to do mobility and move. I have my Therra cups in there. Um, I'll take the Therra gun in there. I have a massage cane, scraper, stuff like that. You know, it's just a great place to do all those things.

SPEAKER_00 50:22

Man, I got a lot more, I got a lot of room to grow.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 50:24

No, well, it's funny because I'm um as a you're saying like how novel it is, you're like putting a time frame on. I'm like, oh, I wonder if I've ever added that up too. But it's, you know, mine definitely comes in a lot of small chunks on most days, you know. Um, unless it's an operating room day, then I know what my day revolves around. And I'll use for me, I was I was wondering this with when you said

Balance Training, EMDR, and the Cathedral Effect

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 50:45

the cold plunge thing on your lifting days, because I find those days to be very taxing to my central nervous system. Yeah. Just fatiguing beyond the muscular component. Yeah, good point. And so on OR days, I will use zone two exercise a lot because I can get real sweaty, which I just love the feeling of just being crazy sweaty. I can get real sweaty, I get breathing hard, but it's not, it's no, there's no tax to my central nervous system to do that. So I'm just I'm just zone two. Yeah, makes a lot of sense. Yep, and then I'll hop in the sauna and do some mobility and balance training. Um, you know, I I love the idea of you know, kind of balance and mixing the two hemispheres of my brain, and because that's what's happening in the operating room. I've got a creative and an analytical thing that I've got to mix together.

SPEAKER_02 51:28

I never thought about that.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 51:29

So, you know, and this exists even in the psychology literature with like EMDR, like eye training like bilaterally, or yeah, it's it's interesting, but ties in.

SPEAKER_00 51:39

I have a uh bongo board. Oh yeah. And those bongo boards, I do I work out on a bongo board.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 51:44

Yeah, talk about like balancing your central nervous system, literally.

SPEAKER_00 51:47

And I'll I'll do that with the with the eyes as well. I'll try and I have spots that I'll mark and oh yeah.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 51:53

Interesting. That's a bit that gets into some. Do you ever feel a psychological release?

SPEAKER_00 51:57

The EMDR really, yeah, yeah, totally. I've done EMDR with a therapist. Yeah. So like I I'll and I didn't really know what I was doing. I was just trying to get rid of some of my headaches, but to challenge my balance centers. Uh-huh. And there's times after I do that that I'll lay in my gym and I'll just like almost pass out. Cause it's just a it's really hard to do that. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 52:19

Yeah, that does get that gets very taxing. That's interesting. I find a lot of those things that I hear that I my best friend is a uh marriage and family therapist, and I've so I've learned a lot of these things from him, like about EMDR and this idea of like havening. Havening is a sort of bilateral thing that we do where we kind of like rub both sides, and it's a I guess it's a we talk about central nervous system regulation. It's like a soothing thing. And he explained it to me. It's like, well, if you ever like drive by a car accident at night, and it's you know, like that's the scene on the side of the road out of the movie where it's dark, but the lights are on that. He's like, and you kind of think a lot of people kind of stand like this. They kind of stand their arms crossed, or they're often like kind of rubbing their hands, and and it's funny because so he taught me this. He also taught me about EMDR, and now I find myself when I'm like scrubbing for surgery, I'm like, oh, I'm havening right now, getting myself ready for this emotional, you know, thing I'm about to go do in the operating. Yeah, that whole process of like literally the movements of watching. Six minutes of me doing this, you know, scrubbing every day. I'm like, oh, so it's just another perspective, you know, on this thing that's like it's very soothing. It's like definitely a focus time. You know, it's my last thing I do before I walk into operate, but it's kind of fun to think about things that way.

SPEAKER_00 53:30

Yeah, it's all connected. I had a I had a a patient that I was working on that was a volleyball player, and she had a uh a few head traumas. And we would just do eye work. I'd have her walk and straight but look as hard as she could one side, and there's a lot of really amazing things you can do that are connected to your eyes for sure.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 53:50

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, we know this even the way that my operating room is set up, like um, there's this idea called the cathedral effect of like when you tend to look up in space, we tend to get a little bit more creative and more in awe. That's like looking up in the cathedral idea. And so even my operating room is designed around a lot of these things where when I look, I re I reference somebody's photos literally hundreds of times during the procedure, and the photos are set like up in the air on a big hundred-inch TV, but up in the air above me. So you get your head there. So now I get to do this for a few seconds. Oh wow, you know, pretty regularly for that. Like, yeah, it's an eye movement, it's our eye muscles. And that's well defined in the literature, this like idea of looking up the cathedral effect.

SPEAKER_00 54:32

Cathedral effect. Never heard of that. Makes a lot of sense. When people think they do that too, right?

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 54:37

Yeah, like yeah, exactly. It's it because it activates creative parts of our brain. I think in the I don't know, I don't know the eye things as well when you're but when you're reading somebody, but doesn't it when they is it looking up or looking down tells you that they're making something up? Yeah, there is something to that. Yeah, yeah. Oh, they're getting creative, or they're just telling not telling you the truth. Yeah, back and

Agree or Disagree Rapid Fire

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 54:57

forth. These are just agree or disagree questions. These are new to me too. We're both gonna answer them. Okay. You don't need to work out every day, agree or disagree.

SPEAKER_00 55:06

What's a workout?

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 55:08

Ooh. Well, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 55:10

I would say I would I would err on the side of yes, you need to.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 55:14

Okay. I'm gonna say you don't need to work out every day. So we can have differing answers there. Move every day, but like train with purpose. Maybe not every day.

SPEAKER_00 55:25

Yeah, I'm with you on that.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 55:27

I do think you need to move every day or should. Um okay. Agree or disagree. Most people are overcomplicating their health.

SPEAKER_00 55:43

Well, man.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 55:45

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 55:46

Right? Yes, agree. Agree. I think so. It doesn't have to be, that's why I was hesitating. Because I know some people that do, but I live my wife may uh just makes it really complicated. I think being outside of this industry makes it you don't know what to believe. Right. You know, so I think of most people, probably it does seem really complicated. Yes. I'm gonna agree.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 56:15

Okay. I feel like we have a sampling error of being in the like longevity space. So I would almost think that when I say most people, like, you know, most of America on the standard American diet, I would say they're undercomplicating their health sometimes. Like and not that it needs to be complicated, but they're under maybe underappreciating their health. Like underestimating? Underestimating, yeah, yeah. Like you said this in our conversation, you know, it's the food, the the water, the quality, the people, the air, yeah. Like that would those things would go a long way. And the light, I would say. Those things would go a long way right there if that was all it was. Like food, air, water, people, and light.

SPEAKER_00 57:02

Oh my God. Can you imagine if we did that?

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 57:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:06

Not bottled crap. But really good food from the far, like straight from the can you imagine? You gotta move to Idaho and build a farm. We could have all those things. As easy as that. Yeah. Except we're not gonna say Idaho, we're gonna say, what should we say? Uh move to Oklahoma. Yeah, not Idaho. There you go. Idaho's not the place to be. We don't want anyone knowing that.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 57:27

Okay, agree or disagree. More supplements does not equal better health. Agree. I agree with that as well. Sleep is more important than exercise.

SPEAKER_00 57:41

Yeah, I'm gonna have to agree on that, I think.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 57:44

I also agree. And data would back that up to a point where if you miss a night of sleep, you can still get a good workout or whatever, but you start missing too many nights of sleep, then the your workout's meaningless anyway. Everything really. It's really after, I think it's like one night, really. Is that what it is? Yeah, so sleep is more important than exercise, technically. Everyone should lift weights. Agree. Agree. I'm gonna say strength train. Everybody should strength train. Yeah, agree. Um, most people don't need as many supplements as they think.

SPEAKER_00 58:15

Most people don't need as many supplements as they think. I mean, if we're going off just that statement, I would I would agree. But I also think that it's probably not the right supplements. That's how I would answer that.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 58:28

Ooh, see, that's another level. I agree. I agree with that. It's like you probably don't actually need that many, but it should be targeted. And there's easy ways to look at what's driving it. Like easy ways. This is what our functional medicine clinic does every day. They like help people. I swear that people come in thinking they're gonna buy leave buying all these supplements. And most of the time it's like most of the time, it's like, well, of the, I mean, sometimes it's like of the 20 things you're taking, sometimes more. You really only need two of those, and you need to add two of these other ones, and that's that's it, you know. Yeah, something really simple. Um your 40s are when you should really start caring about longevity.

SPEAKER_00 59:08

No, disagree. Disagree. Yeah.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 59:10

Me too. As I'm like hounding. As I'm like hounding my 10-year-olds. We will not die, we will not be killed. It's mostly just like that's yeah, there's well, there's evidence to support that too. Interestingly, that the as a child, your exposure to insulin and glucose will determine some trajectory of your long-term blood sugar regulation. Wow. So, which also that just makes sense. There, you know, you're in that kind of like adapting, you know, metabolic phase. And if you're used to having high insulin levels and high glucose all the time, we I mean, we just call that insulin resistance. It's pretty simple, but it starts when we're kids.

SPEAKER_00 59:45

It's scary what these what kids have access.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 59:49

Not mean it's a drug. Yeah, oh for sure. It's maybe the second most addictive drug, nicotine, maybe. Yeah. Anyway, that's a side note. Okay. Biohacking

Is Biohacking Mostly Marketing?

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:00:00

is mostly marketing. We talked about this in our podcast a little bit, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:07

Uh yeah, I would agree. I think that word the word is that I don't know that it that's why I hesitated. Yeah. Because it's not if you do it right, but the word is, I think.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:00:21

I think that that this one doesn't deserve an agree or disagree because it's it's it's a trick question. Because biohacking, I feel like plays off of our desire to um avoid discomfort and just do things quickly and easily. Like it's the it's the easy decision. Yeah, it's a hack. Yeah, it's like I don't have to do the real thing, I can do this hack instead. Uh-huh. But I do think that what the biohacking is trying to mimic, those things are not marketing. They're real.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:50

There's a person in the in the world right now that I was thinking of when you say that that talks about biohacking a lot. And I I've I've seen this person talk about it, and I feel like it's because they cheated when they were younger. Oh. Does that make sense? Yeah, for sure. You have to biohack because you got to make up for all the stuff you didn't do when you're younger. You know what I mean? Right. That's where biohacking kind of like is that a weird vibe for me. It's like, are you? I mean, if my mom's sick, I want to biohack the crap out of things to get her better. Yes. Different than if someone's just trying to make up for the bad decisions they made when they were younger.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:01:25

Right, yeah. And I feel like we the definition of that doesn't has become so you know varied, varied now, variable. Like, is getting morning sunlight biohacking? Right. Or should it be natural? I mean, it people call it that, but it's maybe the most like primitive thing we can do. Not not a hack at all, a daily thing, you know. So I I lose that a little bit. And and uh the other end of that, like you just said with your mom, like if your mom's sick for me, it's if my patients are coming in for surgery, I'm gonna bio it's like is putting them in a hyperbaric chamber postoperatively, biohacking them? Maybe. I again the definition gets so far off. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:08

The application's important.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:02:10

Yep. Okay, last one. The healthcare system focuses too much on treating problems and not enough on prevent preventing them. 100%. Yeah, that's a hard hard degree. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yep, not even close, actually.

Sunlight, Skin Health, and Finding the Middle Ground

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:02:26

Like the thing we just talked about, sunlight being a biohack. It's like, you know, no, it's not, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:32

We were talking about this earlier about uh I'm being careful with how much like sunlight I get and stuff, and there's certain times on my porch where I can go out between 10 and 11, and the sun's just come over the roof, but it's not all the way up in the middle of the day. Oh my god, that was the best 20 minutes just sitting in the sun for just catching a little bit of rays, but not the tough ones.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:02:56

Yeah, and in my world, I would very much be the antithesis or the I would definitely sum a little counterculture to the like avoid sun at all costs that damage your skin because it does, you know, to some degree. UVB energy, particularly, and UVA um can be really damaging to the structure of our skin and the DNA of our cells. No question. Absolutely, you know we know that's true. It can cause skin cancer. But on the flip side is we also can't live without it, right? So we literally can't live without the sun. Um so you have to find we have to find this happy medium of like when should we be getting it? Like it's I I like to think of things from a very common sense standpoint when I hear the vegan and the carnivore debate. Like, okay, you both have points that are valid that you then you extrapolate a lot of other things, but the truth likely lives somewhere in the middle, and I can look in my mouth and see the teeth that I have and know what I'm meant to eat, roughly. And it's not just vegetables and it's not just meat. Like I have grinding teeth and I have cutting teeth, right? So I have some idea where my GI track starts, right? Um, and it's that's when you say it like that, it seems so normal. Right, it's so common sense. And I feel like that with the sun, you know, situation too, where you know it's where's the happy medium? Like, we know that we need it to be. Are you a sunscreen guy? Um, at times, like what I was gonna say there is sometimes I can just like look at the color of your skin. You said your family's in Norway, that tracks, right? Look at the color of your skin. What was your what you know latitude did you develop at, basically, and you have some idea of what your sun exposure should probably look like, right? Um wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:36

That's how I think of it a little bit.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:04:38

And so, yeah, if I'm out in July, I'm fair. If I'm out in the middle of the summer in July at noon on what yeah, I'm gonna have sunscreen on. Usually my face, like I tend to like cover up with hats and hoods and things like that more. Um, but if I'm out at tonight after this, no, I'm not I don't have sunscreen on or early in the morning, like this is when I want sun. Yeah, yeah, especially in our eyes. And we know that that's been very well defined. So we like have photoreceptors that whose only job, their only job, the most primitive cells in our eyes, their only job is to detect light and send light signals to our brain as far as like this is what time of day it is, so we know. Yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:18

Yeah, I'm

Colorblindness and Seeing Golden Hour for the First Time

SPEAKER_00 1:05:19

I'm colorblind. Oh, yeah, strong colorblind. Interesting, and there's so I've always been sensitive to where the sun is because it changes what I see. And there's in the in the evening at sunset at like the golden hour, is my favorite time of day. Why is that? Colors pop because that's the colors.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:05:40

You can see pop.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:41

Interesting in the day, like my wife was sitting out on our back balcony, and it was like two o'clock in the afternoon, two or three o'clock in the afternoon. She's like, come out here, you gotta see this. And and the wind was blowing across the ocean, and it was just enough where she was like, Oh my god, and it was reflecting all I could see was white. I couldn't see anything. It was too much. I knew that. She's like, you sit back there in the shade. I don't know. But I'll come out the second, four o'clock, five o'clock in the afternoon where the sun's just setting and it's not right up hitting me in the eyes. Man, I love getting out there and seeing the colors. Is sunrise the same for you then? Sunrise until the sun's up. Yeah. Like is it as it as if it gets to where I can see the full sun, it's already too much. Okay. If it's just coming up, there's a road that I take sometimes, depending on what time of year it is. There's a road that I take to get to work. And sometimes the sun's not quite up, and the trees and everything, it's amazing.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:06:32

Look those colors you can see.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:33

Yeah, yeah. They pop.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:06:35

Interesting. That's longer wavelengths, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:37

I used to tell people that it was I used to justify it saying, I see the same colors you do. I just don't see them at the same time that you do. And so for my whole life, I thought that's what it was. My wife bought me those colorblind glasses, and we were in Paris. It was for my birthday. And we were up on this hotel just right next to the, it was amazing, and the sun was setting, and she gave me the gift. And I pulled these glasses out at the golden hour, which was my favorite time to see. And I put those on and I just start bawling because I was like, wait, this is what I've been missing this whole time. It just was amazing. Yeah. Ten minutes out there and cried because I thought I'd I thought I'd been seeing what you saw the whole time. And I realized I hadn't. It was amazing. Those glasses changed my life. They're awesome.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:07:25

Wow. That's an incredible. I've never heard anybody with colorblindness talk about that. Oh, really?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:31

Yeah, yeah. No, it's wow. Yeah. It's incredible. Like when we were flying in, the I thought it was winter. Like I kept looking out, going, are we that far north here? Yeah. Because it was, I didn't realize it was so dry. The water, it there's no water. So you know how the the like those weeds, they all turn. Do they look yellow to you? Yeah. Like you know when you kind of between the trees there where the fields, it was like pea yellow to me when I was flying over. I'm like, what is going on? People don't know about that. I think it stuff like that happens to me all the time. I'm like, wait, why does it look like that? And then we landed and I realized, oh, it's just hot. There's no water here. Yeah. Because the trees are green as green, but the the grass between it was yellow instead of green. Yeah. I don't know if that makes sense. So it looked like snow, maybe or something. It just looked like it was winter. It was all dead. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. Anyway. My wife asked me a thousand questions a day about colorblindness sometimes. Oh, really? Yeah. Because she's still fascinated by it.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:08:36

Yeah, men really are the ones that get it. X-linked. Yeah. Yeah. Huh. Carry through your mom, right? Is that what they say? Yeah. Yeah. It comes on your X chromosome.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:46

Yeah. My my mom's brother is as clothblind as I am. Yeah.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:08:50

Yeah. Okay, Jason. So I'm going to kind of start wrapping things up a little bit. Your founder story is incredible. And I would encourage people to go hear that. And there's a lot of other podcasts they can go hear that on. It's super cool. We just kind of said I think what we're talking about is a little bit more applicable to this, and I love that. But that's a good story that people should definitely go listen to. I'll ask you where they can find that best. But so with where you're at now, you have founded what's a global company, literally global, serving the best athletes, the best teams in the world. You're a father, you're a husband, you're taking very good care of yourself.

When Is Your Prime?

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:09:27

My curious question for you is when you were 25 years old, what you thought was your prime, like what was when your prime was going to happen, and with where you're sitting right now looking at it, I I want you to like try to give me both of those perspectives of what you thought it was going to be, what it actually is and was, when it happened, if it's still happening. I really am curious about your perception of your prime. Huh. Because a 25 therabody didn't exist yet, right? Like that. You said that was 15 years after that. Yep. And now you've got, you know, 15 years past that.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:10

It's so funny when you ask me that, Cameron, because I I feel really good right now. Yeah. I feel really good. I don't know. You know, they say that if you knew what you knew now and you went back when you were younger, you'd be better. I think there was probably a time when I was just a little younger than 25 that I felt like I could really do anything. Not like Superman, but I there wasn't anything I couldn't like golf or water ski or we'd talk about that. I don't I think the only thing that I probably feel restricted on is like how many backflips I can do on a trampoline now. Okay. So like I I what a great question. I don't know, I feel I the way I think of life now and my life is so much different than it was when I was 25, obviously. Sure. Um the things I had access to then, and just in the world, and the things that I have access to now, they're not even the same. Right. You know, so like the the things I was doing when I was 25, you know, we talked about I was living in Montana and driving around, and like that was a really cool time. Wow, what a great question, Cameron. I don't know how to answer that. Because I feel blessed now. You know, I don't know that if I think if I I don't know if I wasn't involved in what I'm involved, if I wasn't in this wellness longevity space, I don't know that I would feel like I feel now. I don't know that I would have the perspective that I do about that now. So I appreciate what I was when I was 25. And this is gonna sound like so like the perfect answer. I don't mean it to sound that way, but I appreciate where I was when I was 25, but I really appreciate where I'm at now. Yeah, and I'm grateful for people like you, the people that are in my life that are that just bring good things. You know, I I was listening to um the untethered soul the other day. I was just thinking about the number of distractions we have when we're 25, and the number of distractions we have when we're when I'm 55, and the difference that that is in my life. I think I've been able to I've been able to get to a place where the voices in my head aren't so loud. And for me that's that's a win. When I was younger, they were loud. They they I are they changed my decisions. I I did things because I was listening to the voices, and I really didn't understand what that was. So the books like The Untethered Soul, me understanding like, wait a minute, what's going on here? I've been able to shut those voices down. And I think it's being around, I'm not just saying this, but being around good people like you, people with good habits, people that want good, better change in the world. It just kind of makes me feel better, you know. So I think when I was 25, I was still grinding it out. Yeah, I was still working hard, and you know, I didn't know what I was gonna be when I grew up. Um still don't know that sometimes. But I that's a really great question. I'm gonna have to think about that. I might have to get back to you on that one.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:13:33

Yeah, so I heard a little bit in there of you know, in your 20s, some definition of like physical characteristics and like just a go, just energy to go, versus I heard a lot more of just like gratitude and relationships and things like that now, you know, kind of driving it. I'm just I'm literally curious about this too, you know, kind of being in the middle of those and and um I've always kind of if I were to I've I've always kind of felt like I'm in my prime, which then I get naive, like, well, I can't can't all be my prime. When is it? This is what I'm asking. When is it actually happening? Or when did it happen? Is it happening right now? What is it, what is that like for you? Your prime? Like, what does it mean? And I love the answer to this. Like, I think I think I'm in it at the moment, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:17

Yeah, I really, you know, I I think prime when I when you asked that, I don't know if this is what you were thinking, but I thought prime and I thought, what am I restricted to by uh from doing? Yeah, and I don't feel like I was really restricted from anything when I was 25. Yeah I probably can't, you know, bomb a hill of moguls like I did when I was 25 now without feeling it when I get to the bottom. But I also don't feel like I'm afraid of that hill anymore, like uh or yet, I guess I should say. Sure. So I don't when you said that, I feel like prime means what am I limited from doing? And I don't really feel like I'm limited from anything right now.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:14:52

That's good.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:53

I should knock on wood somewhere.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:14:55

Well, no, it's uh and that's the same story. I would argue that your 25-year-old self might have been more limited, just not knowing what it didn't know. Yeah, right. Yeah, that guy didn't know what you know right now, just muscling through at that time. And didn't have access to things you have access to or knowledge you have now. That's the like if you could go back and know what you know now. So I like that answer. I like that's happening. I'm keeping tabs on mine too. How about you? I I definitely feel like I'm in my prime, and I could define that in a lot of ways. Um, you know, from I think physically, uh maybe I don't recover as quickly, but I honestly am as strong or physically stronger than some aspects. I don't know that I could maybe have the same Iron Man time right now that I did when I was in my 20s, but I bet I could if I trained. I think that I, you know, so I don't really feel any of the physical limitations, but then when I look at the other parts of life, I'm like, oh my gosh, this is I'm so much more capable. I couldn't have ever dreamed of doing some of the like in the operating room for me or whatever it may be with my family in relationships, like I'm so far ahead. So it's like, yeah, I feel like I'm I'm in it or approaching it, or I don't even know. But do you do you remember making goals when you were younger?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:05

Oh yeah.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:16:05

Do you for sure?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:06

Yeah, I did too. Do you do you ever I'm I probably know the answer to this, but do you ever are you ever sort of in awe of what's the number of plates you have spinning?

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:16:18

Oh yeah. Look, it's so in true honesty, when you were just talking about the untethered soul and kind of like the distractions when you were younger versus now, in my head I was like, do I have what's he gonna say? Is he saying, is he gonna say he has more distractions now or less distractions now? Or because in my head I'm like, do I I feel like I probably have more distractions than I did when I was 25, or at least more responsibilities, counting that as distractions or you know, plate spinning, but I also have the ability to triage them better and understand what's what and like know what's important and what's not. Yeah. And that's unfortunate to some things or it may be people that you know like fall on the like this isn't as important to me right now, so it gets kind of pushed down, and it it's not that it's not important, but it's not as important as some of these other things that are going on, and sometimes that's just simply like I got a bunch of stuff to do, and my 12-year-old son says, Hey dad, will you take me out to breakfast? And I'm like, Ah, shoot, I got a lot to do, buddy, and this, that, and the other. But I'm also like, what am I even thinking in my own value system? Like, I know my values, I know my priorities. Like, this is a no-brainer. I would kill for this moment in the future.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:30

Right.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:17:31

Right, I would literally kill for this moment in the future. So, like right now, like my I'm gonna drop the other things, you know. So plates are spinning, they're just gonna keep spinning for a sec, because this other thing popped up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:42

In one thing that also comes to me when you talk about 25

Making Faster, Principle Based Decisions

SPEAKER_00 1:17:46

and 55 is my my decision-making process um and the ability to make it fast, solid, and move on. I think when I was younger, that was one of the challenges I had. I've found for me when I don't know what to do necessarily, that's the problem. It's it's I've I'm faced with something I've never been faced with before. Yeah, I want to make the right decision. So I'd have when I was younger, I didn't have enough experience really to know sometimes, even if I had to make a decision. Yeah. So I but now when I'm older, one of the things I was with my dad the other day, and we were doing some things. He was with me for a considerable amount of time that day, and he made a comment to me. He's like, You make decisions so fast. And I didn't think about what he said, and I started thinking about what I was making decisions on. They're big decisions. Was that a compliment or was it just an observation? Yeah, it was a compliment. He was just saying, kind of, but he was like, I don't, I don't ever like he was maybe an observation. It felt like a compliment, but he was like, you're able to just move through things super quick. I think that's something that comes as well. So you may be spinning more plates, but I feel like I've learned which ones to stay focused on and which ones I can just let them go. You know, in the Untethered Soul that talks about letting things go, not holding on to things. So for me, I've learned which ones I can let go. My wife brings me a problem 20 years ago, I would have spent the next day figuring out that problem. But a lot of times she doesn't need me to figure out the problem. She just needs to give me the problem and then she'll go figure it out herself. So there's little things like that with my kids, especially the same thing, like teaching when they're younger versus like having advising when they're older and just kind of being there to help. It's different. I that's as we're sitting here talking about it, I think that's one of the differences is my ability to make not irrational but quicker decisions based off the knowledge that I have from my experience that I can just move on. I don't have any no problems, you know. Like I probably would have spent three months trying to buy a car, you know, where I've just been like, is that the right one? And how much insurance and the tires, all these things. And now it's just I kind of know I've done that enough times. I just know. So I feel like life's a little bit like that as a metaphor, anyway.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:20:03

So that begs the question for me because yeah, you have, you know, you're like, forgive your 25-year-old self because it had never done that. You'd never done that before. Yeah, because everything was new, and you're probably paying a little extra attention, which maybe feels like anxiety after the decision because now you're in information data gathering mode. Like, okay, how'd this decision play out? You know, you're paying attention. So, what happens now in your 50s when you come up against a decision you've never had to make before? Now what do we do? How do you handle that? When you're back to your in your 25-year-old shoes, but you're actually 50, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:36

It's principle decision making, I think. It's based off principles, you know? That that's when it like, wait a second, what's the the hardest thing and the right thing are the same thing? That's just one of the things I've focused I've found in my life. So if I'm if I'm up against a problem, I think what's the hardest thing right now? That's probably the one I gotta do. Yeah. And for me, that's the quick thing. Instead of avoiding it, and you know, the worst decision I think people make is when they say, I might as well. You know? Yeah. Well, I might as well, whatever. That's the worst way to make a decision. So for me, it's like, what's the hardest? Where's the resistance coming from? Not that I look for it, but in these situations, a lot of times I'm like, where's it coming from? Is it is it family? Is it business? Is it money? Is it and that's where I need to go. I'll step into that. And then there's real learning and a lot of wisdom that I get from those experiences. My kids hate that I say that. Yeah. My son will come to me, Dad, I have this and that, and I'll tell him the hardest thing and the right thing are probably the same thing right now. Yeah. You know the answer. So that those are the things I've learned over time because I've done the wrong thing. I've made the decision because I might as well, or I'm gonna go this way because I don't have to go that way because this is easier. I've done those things. I not because I know now, it's because I went through the hard experiences, divorce and different things where a lot of the wrong decisions were made. So I think it's just at this point now, it's principle-based, just because I understand a little bit more from my own life.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:22:10

Yeah, which to me, as I've learned, maturing means a couple of things. You have to be able to sit down, be quiet, be curious, and examine your options and decisions to know even like what's the harder option here, what's the right option. Yeah, right. It takes that, but the biggest one is this is what I encourage all of my my young, you know, like proteges and mentors and men or mentees, I should say, is like you got to sit down and define your values and principles. Who are you? Because then once you have that framework, it makes a lot of those other decisions easier. Just like what what is what is even the structural foundation of what you're making decisions based off, you know? And you gotta be honest about those too. It's not like some I've had someone that's like, Well, I don't want to be as good of a surgeon as you are. That's not as high on my priority list. I'm like, that's fine, that's okay. It's in what's important is that you know that. Yeah, and what is important to you, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:23:02

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. I had a I had to make a decision recently that was a tough one. It's been a long time since I had to make that tough decision, and I knew the price I was gonna pay after. So I it's interesting you asked that because I just thought about that. It was I it was a decision to to not go be with my family because of some other things, and I also kind of knew going into it that it was gonna hurt, and I knew I was gonna miss some things. Um and I think in life that it's never perfect, it's rarely ever perfect. So that was a moment where I had to just be like it'll mean something some at some point down the road. I I sometimes don't personally I don't try and pull the meaning out of it right now, right then, because I've done that too. Try to make it mean something, you know. It doesn't really mean anything, it just accumulatively does. But if I was talking to my son about this last night because he was he's thinking about moving to back east for a job, and he was like really mulling over it, and he's 27, 28 years old. I was like, this really isn't gonna, if you whether or not you go, this thing won't matter. It's what you do, and now you're happy. Like, that's what's gonna matter in 20 years from now. So I think that's so those are some of the things that that really come up when you ask that question. I'm still trying to find the answer to that. That's a good one.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:24:20

That's just meant to be thought provoking, hopefully. Yeah, it did, for sure. Yeah. Well,

Closing Thoughts

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:24:25

thank you for answering the prime question, too. That's how all that segueed off of. Um, I'm always trying to learn and grow from there, and so I appreciate your thoughtfulness there. And if if you have anything else, let me know. Yeah, I will as it goes.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:36

When I come up with the answer, I'll let you know.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:24:38

Let me know. Um, but I really appreciate having you here. Thank you so much for your time and sharing your wisdom. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:44

It's an honor. Thanks for hospitality. Appreciate it.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:24:47

Yeah, it it's fun to sit across from you and just it's so so genuine and like it's just fun to watch you think, basically. Yeah, it really is. It's like, wow, it's like I really appreciate that about you. Oh, thanks. I appreciate it. Absolutely. If you have any questions or topics you would like me to explore further, please leave them in the comments. I read them all and they often help shape the future conversations here. I also want to be clear that the views shared on this podcast are my own and are not associated with or representative of my clinical teaching affiliation with the University of Washington School of Medicine, nor should this be taken as individual medical advice. Thank you for spending your time with me. I appreciate you being here, and I will see you on the next episode.