Intro

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 0:00

Welcome to the Five Codes Podcast, where we discuss evidence-based methods to elevate yourself to the next level through optimizing the way you look, move, perform, feel, and connect. On today's episode, I sit down with Juliana Pena, who is a two-time UFC champion. That's right. Ultimate Fighting Championships, which is the big leagues of mixed martial arts. Julie is the first mom to ever become a UFC champion. And we dive deep into that topic of being a mom, what it's like to be a feminine role model, being the peak of physical performance, what it's like aging as an athlete, and how her mindset has changed and shaped her career, her motherhood, and what's next for Juliana. She's an incredible commentator now. She's so well spoken. She outlines things so well. And I think a lot of this episode will surprise you. I'm really grateful for Julie for being here. Please enjoy. Julie, thank you for being here. Pleasure. Yeah, very glad that you're here. Um, have a lot of interesting questions. I think I want to ask you, really relating to an audience of very high-performing people who are very similar ages to us, 30s into 40s into 50s, where we're headed. And they just want to know like about your greatness and about being a female, about being a mom. Um, I'm curious about a lot of these things too, so I'm excited to ask some of these questions, but I'm just gonna run right into it and kick it off with this

Becoming the First Mom to Win a UFC Title

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:23

first question about um you were the first UFC champion to have physically given birth to a child. Um, like you won after you did that, which is so cool. And I my question with that was did uh after you know, having a baby, getting back into fighting again and winning a championship, did that make you more dangerous or did that actually compromise the type of fighter that you were before that?

SPEAKER_03 1:50

Well, I think prior to giving birth, you don't think about, you know, being um a a mom when you're in the prime of your career. And for me, it was a shock to know that I was pregnant. But then as soon as I held that baby in my arms for the first time, I had a complete shift in my mentality of this is what I was put on this earth to do. This is my purpose. And nothing in my life has mattered up until this point of holding my child and me being now a guardian and a protector of her. It was like I instinctually had this mama bear instinct of this is where I get my source of strength from, and this is my duty to protect, and now I have a purpose. So I think after having her, I found a different level of strength that I didn't even know that I had or that I didn't know that I needed. And I think that that actually helped me become even more fierce inside the octagon than I was before.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 2:48

That's very interesting. So you kind of found another gear, a level of protection, a level of purpose, basically in motherhood that wasn't there before. One of my favorite pictures is you and Isa when you were weighing in and a very huge fight against Amanda Nunez, and she was kind of there, literally mirroring you, right? Like kind of like standing next to you in the way in and flexing and things like that. So I can imagine that was quite the journey of through like giving birth to getting to that point. Like, you know, what a big ability to literally reflect on a little mini you there watching it happen. What was that like?

SPEAKER_03 3:20

Well, it's weird because I have such a different job than um many other working moms out there, but it a job is a job and somebody's got to do it. And so, although it was a place where many people criticized me to say that that's not where a child belongs, I felt that my path is a little bit always has been rarer than somebody else's. And it was a proud moment for me to be able to have her there, you know, loyalty for me is everything, flexing behind me and and putting her dukes up to be, you know, like like she's got my back. And it was, it was just a special moment, one of my most proudest moments and and such a source of pride and joy to see her back there. And almost at that point, I thought that she broke the internet at, you know, three years old. She broke the internet and she was there um standing behind me. So she's gonna remember that forever. I'm gonna remember that forever. But more importantly, I want it to always represent a bond that we share. That it might have not been like everybody else's jobs or like other moms that she might meet in the in the future or that she knows now. But it hopefully it's a little bit more special for her to know that, you know, mom was up there um performing and fighting my butt off in front of the whole world.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 4:35

Right. Yeah. And it's funny that you say that because I think that brings up a really good point is like you have a bit of a different job than most people do, which I don't think a lot of people understand. And, you know, even honestly being in combat sports and being into it, I didn't understand until we got to train together for a bit too, sort

A Day in the Life: The Grind Behind Fight Night

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 4:51

of how actually regular your job is, right? You wake up and you strength train and you strike and you roll, go to jujitsu, or you do MMA. Like it is, you're doing the things. Um, you have a day job, basically, but those day jobs don't come to fruition until it's performance night, fight night. You said performance, like it kind of is that, you know? Um, and so I was really surprised at the regularity of that. Um, regular regularity of the schedule, but also the like extreme, I would say cognitive and physical demands. Everybody can understand the physical demands, but I train a lot when I was with you, like jumping from thing to thing was like trying to wrap my head around what are we doing next? And what like I'm fatigued from the one before, even cognitively, yeah, and trying to jump into the next thing. So I think that would be really surprising for a lot of people to really see like a what's a day in the life like for you? What does rock me through?

SPEAKER_03 5:44

So one of the things, and and you know this, I'm I'm originally here from uh the Pacific Northwest. And when I lived here, I was a one-stop shop with my with my gym. You go to the gym, you do everything there, you go home, and it's right down the street, I could throw a stone and I'd hit the place where I go, and that's it.

SPEAKER_02 6:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:00

In Chicago, it's so much different now that I've moved because uh the boxing training and the jujitsu training and the strength and conditioning training and then the MMA training are all four different locations. And the, I don't know, maybe some of these viewers understand the traffic situation, but Chicago traffic is some of the worst in the entire world. And I don't have it uh quite made to the point that I can have a chauffeur drive me around and I don't like Teslas because I'm stubborn. And I have to drive myself to all of these training sessions and then sit in this traffic for an hour and a half. On top of that, I am a single mother and I have to drive my daughter to and from school, and she is about 45 to an hour away from her school. So constantly on the daily, it's like from the moment that I wake up at 6 a.m., I'm in my car. And then I don't get out of my car until like eight o'clock, eight thirty some nights. I live in my car and I'm just going from training session to training session to training session and eating on the road and stopping at Whole Foods and you know, grabbing up and filling up where I can. Um, and you have to understand too that some days are not always gonna be quite as uh heavy intensive. But for the most part, it's not a regular job like somebody who sits at a computer desk every day or somebody who has to um, you know, be on time at 9 a.m. sharp or else they're gonna get written up. It's like I have an obligation to go to these training sessions and be there on time. And if not, I'm gonna get locked inside that octagon and I'm gonna be like, dang it, I wish I wouldn't have slept in that one day and and would have got that one more training session in because now I'm standing across from this beast lady who wants to tear my head off my shoulders. And that alone makes me want to get my butt to practice and make sure that I make all of these training sessions. And I think that, you know, not a lot of people don't understand the grind of driving from one session and then being exhausted and can't even like hold the wheel and wanting to fall asleep, but then you got to go to the next training session and the next training session. It's exhausting, but that's what I have to do in order to be successful to make it to Fight Night.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 8:04

Yeah, there's a difference between being in the UFC or being in any league, NBA, NFL, and being the champion, right? They're they're different levels. It takes a different level of commitment and talent and skill. And and honestly, I as I realized training with you, also a different level of like putting the puzzle puzzle pieces together. There's a skill in just that. Like, when do I recover? When do I train? How do I eat? Yes. How do I pick Esau from here and drop her off here? Like there's a lot to fit together. I was very impressed by that.

SPEAKER_03 8:29

Oh, thank you.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 8:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:31

It's uh one thing that I have noticed too is that you can't cram it all in at one session and get it all in in one session. And that's how injuries happen. That's how uh you prolong your career, you know, is because I am fighting, because it is such a physical demand on the body and because it takes

The Cost and Purpose Behind Why She Fights

SPEAKER_03 8:49

a piece of your soul every time you get locked in there, you have to be able to tweak things and figure out how can I do this better for the next camp so that I'm not dying in the car driving to my next session, so that I'm not, you know, running on empty all the time. And those are things that I've been trying to tweak and figure out since I started in 2007.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 9:06

So you said something really interesting there that I just you mentioned like every time you fight, you leave a piece of your soul in there, basically. And I want to put a pin in that for just a sec to I have a similar view. Every time I go to the operating room, I feel like I'm giving a piece of myself. I have a fixed number of these I'm gonna do in my life. And every time I do it, like here's my investment, I'm giving part of myself away, um, which I think is foreign to a lot of people to understand that. What do you what's your feeling pulling the pin back out when you say I'm leaving a piece of my soul in there? What is that like? What do you mean?

SPEAKER_03 9:35

There's um so many head-on collisions that you can get before you have to be able to say enough is enough, you know? And being a fighter, you're very stubborn and you don't ever want to think about the idea that it could be over and you could be hanging it up. But every time you get locked inside that octagon, something is happening to your body where you're like taking years off of your life. And for me, for example, and and when you and I first started working together was when I had the rematch with Amanda Nunes. And I'm in the fifth round pulling blood out of both of my eye sockets because I had a cut on my forehead and I physically could not see. Like I was crying blood. And that like scar that was left on my forehead will never go away, and I will have it for the rest of my life. And it's something that physically and emotionally, mentally challenges you because then you're thinking, okay, that was really bad. That was very violent, and now I gotta wash it out of my brain and go do it again. And you're like, I can't wait. I'm okay, I'm signing myself right back up. You know, like what happens if I get punched in the eye and it goes gets, you know, shut and I can never open my eye again? Those are the risks that you run when you're getting locked inside that octagon. And that's something that I take on, but it's uh an emotional uh load that you have to be able to move past and figure out is is it worth it? Is it going to um benefit me so much that I'm willing to risk it all in order to get my hand raised? And for most fighters and for people particularly like myself, I I believe that it is because this is the only thing that I've ever known and it's the only thing that brings me true joy.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 11:20

Interesting. Yeah, you just kind of answered one of my questions, which you know, when you said the leave a piece of yourself in there, I picked up two parts. I picked up a very physical part. You're talking about taking years off your life, the physical expense, the toll you pay to be in there, which is real. Yeah, when we met, you had some significant lacerations. I don't think you they really I when I look at you now, I'm like, ah, those look great. You did a great job. Um, but then I also heard the like more the more spiritual part of like, you know, giving your a piece of yourself to this, which is giving a piece of yourself to your future self, yeah, like for doing it, um, but also, you know, to everybody that's watching, really, too. Like there's people want to see it's almost like the more violent or worse the better sometimes, even when it's a really technical, beautiful fight for somebody that understands it. So it leads to a question, and you kind of just answer it, but why? Why do you do it?

SPEAKER_03 12:13

Um, you know, I I again it's one of these things that it was just um, I don't want to say bred in me, but it's just like it's in my DNA. It's it's who I am. It's it's innate, it's as as easy for me as breathing. It's when everybody is seeing the chaos and seeing the turmoil and and and seeing the fire. I'm one of the few that is willing to walk through that hot bed of coals. I am that person that's running towards the chaos. I am a helper. I want to be, you know, the the one to be brave. And I think that that's just you either are or you're not. And that is something that I've always known about myself is that's the just the type of person that I am, is I want to do anything that I can to um it uh inspire hope, inspire um motivation. I I want to be able to do it for myself first and foremost, because I believe that I have an obligation, not only to myself, but in my faith. I I feel like my job is to bring glory. And the only way that I can do that is through my fighting. It was taught to me from a young age that everybody has a gift, and your duty is to give that gift back, to sacrifice that gift to get the glory. And for me, it's been through fighting that my job is to be able to use my platform as best as I can to give the glory back. And for me, that's

What People Misunderstand About Strength

SPEAKER_03 13:34

through fighting. That's the only way that I know how to do it. Um, because that's the only thing that I feel like I was blessed or or good enough or you know, that I could actually do well enough that would give glory.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 13:46

Yeah, it's a special gift. And uh and clearly you carry a passion for it. So that's it's a beautiful combination. Yeah. And you're doing a very good job of that. Thank you. Yeah. Okay, Julie. So what do women in general misunderstand? Actually, let's women and men, what do we misunderstand about strength? And I'm gonna frame this with you have on you know, championship night, you are by definition the peak of physical performance. You are as as capable as anybody could be that night to do something very primal, like one of our core primal instincts, right? So you physically you are it. What do people misunderstand about that, about actual strength? Because it's not just that, there's more to it. You're a mom, you have a lot of other things. And how does that change as we move through our 30s, 40s, and 50s?

SPEAKER_03 14:35

That's a a a loaded question. And it's it's a little bit hard to answer because I think that on one facet, you have women that think, oh, well, if I lift weights, then I'm gonna get bulky and then I'm gonna look like a man. And then you think, oh, well, if I uh don't lift, then everything is going to turn into mush, and then I'm not gonna be able to like walk and do these things when I get to the 50s and 60s. So it and then there's the standards of beauty that that women have of not wanting to be big and thick and muscular and wanting to be skinny and thin and frail, and and where is the happy medium of being able to be both? Can you be strong? Can you be feminine? Can you choke somebody out, but then also be a present mother who is very nurturing and caring and doting and all of the things? I think as women, we have a big um, I I don't want to say a Catholic guilt, but this thing that resonates with us where we want to be able to, we take on the whole world and we want it all on our shoulders and we have so many things that we have to check off and we have to be perfect here, perfect here, perfect here. It there's so many things that are expected of us as women. And it's hard to be able to differentiate between when I can let this go and then when do I need to step on the gas. And one of the things that I feel for myself is yeah, I'm I'm very capable physically, mentally, emotionally to do all of the things. Um, but I think that sometimes there can be a point where it you can also rest. You can also say, I need some help. You can also say, I can't do this all on my own. And that's not weakness, you know, and then and for men too, you know, men sometimes don't want to be able to say, this burden is too much or this load is too strong for me to carry. I need help. And, you know, there's a lot of um inner like people shell up into their holes and go inner because they don't want to appear weak when they're really hurting. And I think that that's something that needs to be um a little bit more okay with people to open up and say, you know what, I I can't do it all on my own. I don't have the strength to do it all on my own. Um, and I think that that's something that I battle with myself because I can barely stand somebody doing one thing for me because I feel so like, no, no, no, I got it. You know, you don't want to burden anybody, I don't want to ask for the help. But I think that that's one of the strengths that I think that people need to do more of and and reach out to those communities that they have so that they can get that support. And then you talk about the other side of physical strength. I can choke out anybody to with the best of them.

SPEAKER_02 17:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:19

But then there's also this the the idea that sometimes physicality does play a part. Sometimes there is somebody who's gonna be bigger, faster, stronger than you, and they're gonna beat you, and you have to be okay with that too. Um, and sometimes you just get beat. Sometimes you just have to even if you're the better ones. Even if you're the better one, you just have to be able to to to nod your your hat and say, Hey, you got me today, but tomorrow I'll rise again. You know, tomorrow the sun will rise and I'll be coming to to get you again and not let it defeat you and and feel like, oh, just because I lost, that that's my worth now. I'm just a big loser. It's like, no, that's life. You have to take the punches, roll with the punches. Some days you win, some days you lose. Some days you're on top of the world, and some days the world's on top of you. But every day the sun rises and you got to go attack and go get it again. You can't just have that, you know, doormat laying down mentality. You have to, you know, not let it get you down. And I think that that strength is something that's not, I'm not talking physical strong. Yeah, I'm talking mental strong and and being able to emotionally get over those hurdles that would sometimes maybe otherwise depress people to the point that it keeps them down.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 18:24

Yeah.

Winning, Losing, and Her First Defeat

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 18:25

And that I think you've demonstrated that quite literally on the where the rubber meets the road, the fruits of your labor, winning a title, losing a title, and winning it back, right? That's got it. I'm assuming the highs, the lows. What is what is your mentality after winning versus after losing versus after winning? Does it change?

SPEAKER_03 18:45

I first when I experienced my very first loss, I was the most depressed I've ever been in my entire life. I don't know what I was thinking. I was very young.

SPEAKER_05 18:55

First loss.

SPEAKER_03 18:55

First loss. I don't know what I was thinking. I I think back then I thought, well, I'm never gonna lose. And when I experienced that taste of defeat in the manner in which I did, it was the most depressing period in my life. And I wanted to die, I didn't want to live, I couldn't see past my nose. How could I ever get back inside of the octagon again? I'm a failure. And then once I was able to wash that out of my brain and realize that everybody wins and loses and not take like I thought that it was stamped on my forehead. I thought that everybody could see it and that I just had loser written all over me and that anybody that looked at me were like, she's a loser. And it wasn't until I accepted myself fully to know that that is not my worth and that's not indicative of who I am as a person, that's when things started to change because I wasn't taking it. Um, well, I'll tell you, I still take every loss pretty hard. I I'm I want to win, but I also know that winning and losing is part of the game and nobody gets away unscathed. And for me, being able to come back and persevere and try again and win again and get that hand raised one more time is just a being like, see, you can win again. You're not a failure. And getting back on the horse is the only way to figure that out. You can't let it deter you mentally or because it will, it will try to put you down in the in the dumps. And if you allow it, it will keep you there. Um, and and that is one of the things that I think needs to be uh looked at a little bit more as far as the support system that you have, and as far as allowing yourself to you can be down for a day, but the next day you have to get up and and start again. You can't get married to your wins and you can't get married to your losses. And when you do, it'll keep you down there in shackles. And so you're you're not uh defined by winning and losing. You are defined by how you lose and how you get back up and how you attack again. And I think that uh learning from those losses is where the real gems are found.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 21:07

That's a powerful message. That's a really powerful message. What would you I mean, going back, how old were you during in that first loss? And this the answer may be nothing, but what would you tell your younger self now, knowing what you know? Would you would you have just experienced the same thing or would you have spoken some words of wisdom to your younger self?

SPEAKER_03 21:24

I wouldn't have taken the fight. It was not the right time for me to to fight. I had just recently got ran over walking on the sidewalk in downtown Spokane. I had just shattered my nose for the first time. Um the day before the fight, I was doing my chores at my mom's house and I stabbed myself in the wrist. And um I had to go to the emergency room right before the fight to get my hand stitched up. And then I had to go get inside the octagon the next day. Okay. Um, and I had just like less than two months been ran over on the street. So it was not the right time for me to to have gotten in a I wouldn't have taken the fight, but coulda, woulda, shoulda, you know, I you can't go back. And so it's not like I don't I don't want to say I don't have any regrets, but I would have told myself, hey, you know what? It's okay to not, you know, save the card that, you know, fell apart yesterday and be the one to be the hero. You don't need to do that. You're just not going to take the fight. Um, but I learned from it. I learned a lot of things from it. And I learned from that loss, particularly because I got my arm snapped in half and I got armbarred. Um, maybe some arm bar defense. How about that? You know, and and knowing where I was weak and knowing that I am susceptible to arm bars. And I think that knowing I would have never thought that I could have got armbarred before. I would have been like, oh, you're I would have never respected it. And I was forced to respect it after that. I I was forced to train my jujitsu more. And I think that the only thing that it did was make me a stronger fighter. Yeah.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 22:52

Yeah, that's the sign of a a great athlete or champion. It's like you look at those lessons as opportunities for growth, you know, kind of where your blind spots are, where you get exposed a little bit. Absolutely. That's a big lesson.

SPEAKER_03 23:03

Yeah, it was. Yeah. I did get the last laugh though. I was able to submit her in order to make it to the finale of the ultimate fighter.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 23:09

That's oh, same fighter, huh?

Femininity, Ferocity, and Motherhood

SPEAKER_03 23:11

Same girl. I rematched her on national television when it really counted.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 23:14

Yeah, so you what you wouldn't want to do things different.

SPEAKER_03 23:17

I still didn't want to take that loss in front of my hometown.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 23:19

Yeah, fair enough. Fair enough.

SPEAKER_03 23:21

It's pretty bad.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 23:22

Yeah, I like that. So, Julie, you are a mom. You're feminine, you're fierce, you fight in an octagon, you raise your daughter. Have you ever felt pressure to kind of choose between these identities of femininity, ferocity, motherhood? Do those is that do you have to feather these out?

SPEAKER_03 23:43

Yeah, absolutely. Um, because especially being Venezuelan and growing up in a culture where looks are important and you know, making sure that you're always with your best foot forward. You got your hair, your makeup, you got your nails done, you got your lashes on. I grew up in this culture. I've been growing up putting on makeup since I was in the fourth grade.

SPEAKER_02 24:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 24:04

And having this affinity of being, you know, beautiful and beauty queen. And, you know, I think that I had to take a bit of that away when I started fighting because you can't wear your eyelashes inside the octagon because they're gonna come flying off your face, and you can't have the long nails in the octagon because you're gonna scratch somebody's eyeballs out. And so it's like a little bit of a give or take. Like, how can I still be feminine but then also be fierce? And that's something that I think that I um used to struggle with in the beginning, but not so much uh now. But there is a bit of a when people see me, oh, I didn't recognize you without your braids in, you know, and very different look that way. Yes, yes. And or they'll say, Well, I didn't realize that you like to dress up and and wear makeup, you know what I mean? And so it's always like a um when you are slumming it, looking like no hair and no makeup and and looking disgusting, they're like, Oh, I thought she was supposed to be prettier than that. And then when you are really pretty and you're all dressed up, they say, Well, I don't even recognize you because you know you don't have your braids in. So it's like you can never win, and it's never enough for for for people. So you just kind of have to figure out what is true to you, you know, and and what makes you you. And I think that it's okay for me to be feminine some days, and it's okay for me to, you know, be a fighter some days. And it's always okay to be a mom, I think. I think that that's again what gives me um my extra strength. But there is a bit of that women having to hit all the boxes that I think that is a little bit it's a lot to have to to put up with, but that's kind of also the world that we live in and the society that we live in.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 25:42

Yeah. So just for maybe somebody who have hasn't seen a fight,

Fight Week and the Killer Mindset

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 25:46

tell me what you're referring to with the the braids and like, you know, weigh-ins are different than fight night. What what happens in that time?

SPEAKER_03 25:53

What is what do we So for fight a week? You come in and it's like media, media, media, media. This is my chance to tell my story. This is my chance to get my brand out there, this is my chance to tell people about who I am that have maybe not ever seen me fight before. And that is all cameras all day, just camera, camera, camera, camera, interview after interview. And so, of course, you want to be, you know, looking fierce. And then when you weigh in, you are having to cut weight in order to make this weight class. And that can be very physically demanding on the body, and it can be very mentally draining as well. Because after you are during this week of media, you're also cutting weight. And so people are not noticing that you haven't drank water in 24 hours or that you're sipping water for 24 hours because you can't take a full gulp because you have to cut all of this water weight in order to make it to the scales. So there's a big component of that of hi, I'm happy. I'm I'm I'm interviewed, I can't wait to be here. And on the inside, your tummy is grumbling and you're so hungry, and all you really want to do is just strangle somebody because you're so irritable from having to lose all this weight. But then you gotta do the hair and the makeup and make sure that you're smiley and chipper and on the interview side. And then it comes fight day and you're getting your hair braided, and you turn into instead of the cameras and the lights and the action, I'm now a killer. And now I'm ready to get into that state of I'm not playing any games. I am literally coming to take everything from you because if I don't, you're gonna do it to me. And it's quite literally killer be killed. And that is a dark place, can be a dark place because I feel like on the inside, I have to pretend that if I had a heart, it would be black because I I am just a stone cold killer and I don't have a heart. I'm gonna rip your throat out if I have to. But then there's another aspect of that where it's like, no, my heart is so big and I want to rip your throat out, but it's only gonna be for a little bit because I swear it's gonna be better for both of us. It's like I have a job to do, and if I don't do it, then you're gonna do it to me. But if you let me do it really quick, then it'll be easy and painless, and then it'll be good. But then that's what the other person's thinking too. The other person is wanting to show you how big their heart is. So it's like it's a weird uh dichotomy of do you have a heart or is your heart black and you're a killer? It's like, no, my heart is so big, let me show you how hard it is and how big and red and beating it is. But then at the same time, it's like, no, it's uh it's a killer type of mentality where it's like I I do this, I, I, I kill you, and I don't even think twice about it because I'm such a warrior, you know, and I'm like want to like take your head off and show everybody and be like, look at what I did, you know. But at the same time, it's like very weird because it's such a violent and volatile type of um state of mind that I put myself in. That I have also over the years, we talked about the training needing to change. The mentalities had to shift quite a bit too, because it's like you're like saying on these interviews in like national television and everything that you're a serial killer. You can't say that.

SPEAKER_05 29:04

You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 29:05

It's like that's not exactly something that you should be going around and being proud to say. Yeah. So it's like, okay, well, I don't mean it quite like I'm a serial killer. I just mean it that I have to be my absolute most fiercest. And the only thing that I can equate it to, and probably what I should have said from the beginning, is it's the animal kingdom. It's it's the animal kingdom, it's a circle of life, and this is just the the way the the sport works. It's not quite as volatile, I think, as I make it. It's just a fight. But in some aspects, it is extremely um uh volatile because this person wants to hurt me, and I have to do everything in my power to not let that happen.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 29:44

Very different mindset. Right. And what you just said, I think three big questions came out of that for me. The first one is about weighing in. And um, but just for people that don't know, in combat sports, it's pretty typical,

Body Image, Weight Cuts, and Peak Performance

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 29:58

whether it's boxing or wrestling or jujitsu or MMA, is you gotta be at a certain weight, which is not the weight that you live at.

SPEAKER_05 30:04

No.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 30:05

And so you're also beautiful, you're weighing in in front of people, you're being photographed all the time. Um in addition to having to dehydrate yourself, which we know cognitively significantly decreases your performance. So it's wildly impressive that you can have a media day while you're dehydrated. Like when I'm operating, I'm so focused on being hyper hydrated so that I can think clearly. Um are there any body image issues that come with that? With this, like, I have to be at this weight, all these photographs are on me. I'm actually usually what eight or 10 pounds heavier than that walking around. Like, what how does all that mingle together as a woman?

SPEAKER_03 30:43

As a woman, and especially with us having cycles, when I am cutting weight, it's not just that fight week. It's like I need to be diligent and dedicated to my nutritional program throughout the entire camp. And whereas some girls just want to binge out on a bar of chocolate, I look at people eating like some frozen yogurt, like I just want a little bite. You know what I mean? And having to like stop yourself from, you know, overindulging on something that you see your friends or family being able to just have freely and you having to stay dedicated to know that you can't have that because you have to cut this weight. And then you get to weight cut day, and you're I would say that my body images are more focused on like what does their body look like? How much weight are they having to cut? Do they are they suffering as much as I am? Or are because for the most part, when I weigh in, I'm always like, that girl's huge. How the heck did she make all that weight? Dude, it looks like she cut like 35 pounds and like I'm like starving myself, and literally I cut four pounds and I'm acting like a baby and like like weigh in only like four more pounds the next day. I look the same, you know? So I think that there's a little bit of a focus that I have to keep my mind on on who cares about what they look like, who cares about how much weight that they have, focus on yourself. And then when I do get to that point where I'm cutting weight, I swear every time I say it, I say, I'm not gonna get bigger again. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna go back to my walk around weight. I'm gonna stay at this weight, I'm gonna stay shredded, I'm gonna stay to walk around as close to 135 as possible. And then the fight gets over and you're right back to like pizza and sodas and all the things, and you reward yourself because you were so, you know, disciplined throughout the camp that you just all you want to do is just eat. And then you get away from the fight, and people are like, Well, I thought she was gonna be, you know, 135. And it's like, I only wake 135 for one minute. Yeah, I cut to 135, I step on the scale at 135 for about probably less than an hour.

SPEAKER_05 32:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:41

And then as soon as that's over, I go right back to my natural walking weight. So I think there's a big misconception of, oh, she's fat, she's out of shape, but it's like this is actually what I am normally at, and I'm only at that weight for one hour.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 32:54

And it's mostly fluid, and it's all water.

SPEAKER_03 32:56

Yeah, it's all water. So there's a there's a hard part about that too, because then you get to these cultural things where people are like, you know, ultra skinny and thin and wanting to be on the osempic and the reta and you know, this culture of you know, thin is in. And then it was like, well, strong was in. And then it's like women have to balance this am I strong or am I thin? Am I skinny? Am I fat? You know, and and I think that that is something that a lot of people uh deal with, not just fighters.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 33:22

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, and it that goes back to, in my opinion, being at that level of peak performance for you. Like at when you're at that 135, you're actually not at your peak performance at that moment. No, it's 24 hours-ish later when it's like now. You've rehydrated, you've got you got nutrition in you, and now it's like this is and that's part of the planned overall camp, right? The progression, which is weeks to months long, right, to get to that minute of like Bruce Buffer saying your name, and then you get to roll, right? Right. Um, the the other couple of things that I picked out were um a little bit of how your mindset as an you know, you're now in your 30s, right? Started in your 20s or younger even,

How Her Mindset Has Shifted with Age

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 34:05

but like how has your mindset as an athlete changed over time? And we've talked about this actually, you know, over the last years, just of like going from like what your motivation was to fight, what your identity was internally, what's driving you to walk in there and you know want to take it from them. Um, has that changed as you've gone from amateur to early professional to champion, defending champion? Very professional now. Yeah. Is it the same or has that changed?

SPEAKER_03 34:34

Oh, it's changed. Like I said, before I used to walk around being like, I'm a killer, I'm a killer, I'm a serial killer. And now I'm like, it's a sport.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 34:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:40

It's a sport.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 34:41

It's a professional attitude.

SPEAKER_03 34:42

It's a professional professional sport, and it's not something that this girl stole my lunch money since I was in the third grade, like I used to think it was.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 34:49

Is there any part of that now that still remains?

SPEAKER_03 34:52

I think always it will, but that's because there's probably these traumas that I haven't dealt with from like childhood. And if I deal with those problems, I probably wouldn't be a fighter anymore. You know, I'd probably hang it up.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 35:03

You disagree on this.

SPEAKER_03 35:04

Yes, we do, but I'm not ready to face those demons. I'm not ready to figure out what is the true reason behind why I fight. I just know that I have this fire and this passion inside of me. I'm good at it, and this is what I've known. So I have an obligation to fight as long as I can in the body that I have right now. And then also think about you want to walk when you're 50, right? Yeah. So maybe like not go so crazy. My mentality has shifted where it was white knuckling all the time and five practices a day and more, more, more, more, more. And now it's like you can't do that anymore. You do need to make it till you're 50. And it's time to start thinking about what the backside of your career is going to look like, as opposed to, you know, being 45 and still trying to get locked inside the octagon and fighting. It's just there's some things where quality of life has to be taken into consideration. And when you're young, you're not thinking about that. In my older age lately, I've been noticing that I keep thinking a lot about life and death. And it's been like plaguing me at night lately, where I'm just like, boom, life is over, it's done, it's it's gone. And I think that I have been putting more of an effort into thinking, what is my life now going to look like moving forward? How am I going to provide for myself and my daughter and be able to maintain my lifestyle when fighting is gone? And I wasn't thinking about that before. Before it was guns ablaze and who wants some, anybody can come get some. I'll take on anyone and everyone. And now it's like, you ain't no spring chicken anymore. Girls, time to start thinking about, you know, what are the realities uh that you're looking down the line at? And, you know, choosing the right opponents and making sure that I'm not white knuckling it every day in training anymore and being smarter about how I attack my training camps is something that I would have never thought about before or thought mattered before. And now I'm like, oh, those are like big factors in even accepting a fight.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 36:59

Yeah. So I hear a lot of emotional maturity in there, um, uh like logistic maturity, intelligence, basically, of how to program, how to fight, how to train. Um, and and you hinted at this. This is actually my third question

Aging, Recovery, and Functional Medicine

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 37:12

is as just an aging female athlete, and aging, you know, it's you age from 19 to 22. That's also aging. But as an aging female athlete, what uh is that like for you? What is your training and recovery? And it's not the same as when you were 20. Have the other techniques and things that you've learned through this other type of maturity have those made up for it? What does that look like?

SPEAKER_03 37:34

It it's been able to open up a different door of opportunities that I didn't have before. Before we didn't have these modalities that people are taking more seriously because of technology and because I was a no-namer, and because I didn't understand educationally that I needed these types of modalities in order to recover. And now that you know you win championships, it's like, here's a sauna from our company. Here's this red light from our company. Things that I would have never been able to have before have been given to me. And I'm like, oh, well, these things are changing the way that I approach the game, and they're things that I never thought about before. But now that I have won championships and have been given these opportunities to get these types of products or get, you know, my eyes exposed into different ways to recover, that is what has helped change my perspective on recovery and on the longevity of my career.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 38:28

Yeah. So you have some of these key modalities you're using, um, but you are physically aging while you're doing it. Um what do you have like a do you have a plan as to how this is gonna move forward? Are you, I mean, are you actively, you know, taking note of where you're at and changing your training plan, or is it still just sort of like, okay, I've got this, and then I'm gonna get sauna red light, and then I'm doing this tomorrow. Like, is it more dynamic now?

SPEAKER_03 38:53

Or it is, you know, and it's also helps to to help from from you guys, from Dr. Leah, from her helping expose some things in my blood work that I would have never even considered before. Things where I'm like having these uh issues where I bring it to Dr. Leah and she's like, Well, let's get a blood panel done. And then I get this blood panel done and I find out things about myself that I had no idea that needed to be taken care of. And I'm like, Oh, well, no wonder why I'm always so exhausted all the time. No wonder why I'm yawning so much. No wonder why I have like I feel so inflamed or I've been getting all of these injuries. You know, it's things that I didn't realize that were wrong with me or wrong with my body, that once, you know, working with the team, I realized, oh, this is actually quite more serious than I thought it was.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 39:40

Yeah. And that's like your that exemplifies. I mean, this you're talking about functional medicine, improving your ability to train and recover as an athlete, basically, and which is just like a foundational part of your whole life, but you just take it to an apex. You're you have that in a pressure cooker. And I love that because I always talk about my athlete's mentality for myself, how I train, execute, and recover. And same for my patients, right? Yeah. And so where you're under a lot of metabolic and physiologic stress training and cognitive stress, uh, my patients are too. They're coming in, they're having surgery. I'm about to put you under a big stress. So I love that idea of like, before we do that, let's like get our ducks in a row a little bit. Let's look under the hood and let's see what's there because it can be pretty meaningful a lot of times.

SPEAKER_03 40:21

Well, and there was things in my family's uh history, uh medical history that weren't caught up with me at the time. Things that I didn't even consider. And I was like, oh, well, I'm the only one that doesn't have it. And then I got this like blood work done. I'm like, oh. I haven't. You know, and being able to check under that hood and get these, you know, ducks in a row has helped me in my uh training and helped me in my recovery because now I'm understanding things about my body that I didn't even understand before. Yeah, I was just chalking it up as I'm just old and tired and I don't know how much longer I can do this. And then once I got all that stuff dialed in, I was like, oh, well, I don't feel so much like crap anymore.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 41:00

Yeah, get some more longevity. I'm more you basically understand what levers to pull and how hard you need to pull them. Yeah. You have that map in front of you.

SPEAKER_03 41:06

Yes.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 41:06

I love that.

SPEAKER_03 41:07

Yeah, shout out to Dr. Leah.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 41:08

Shout out to Leah, yep, yep. And you've seen Dr. Meadows as well.

SPEAKER_03 41:11

Oh, Dr. Meadows. Yeah, I can't forget about Dr. Meadows. Yeah. I was trying to go see him after this. Yeah, there you go.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 41:16

Love that. Okay, Julie, so I think we can all agree that what you do is very hard. And I just want to pick your rein a little bit. This is like one of my mantras, just like comfort to slow death, right? What has your

The Psychology of Doing Hard Things

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 41:28

life taught you about the psychology of doing hard things? How do you approach whether it's motherhood, physical training, fighting? What is your mentality around doing hard things?

SPEAKER_03 41:40

I noticed that I am able to tolerate pain in a way that a lot of people are not. Physical pain. Physical pain. And it's so weird because when you talk about physical pain, I can I got buckets of it. Okay. But then when you talk about a needle or a massage therapy, like a like a masseuse, those are about the only two people that can make me tap. And they're like, oh, I didn't realize you were such a baby. You know, I'm like, neither did I. I can take pain in a weird way. Yeah, you can punch me in the face all day long and I'll keep coming. But you get a needle to try to take my blood or like give me a massage and I'll be like kicking and screaming and being like, I'll turn into the biggest baby you've ever seen. Um, so it's really funny because I'm trying to say that I can take pain, but it's not the kind of pain that you would think. It's the type of mentality of getting socked in the face and continuing to keep coming. And um, you know, maybe getting your arm taken up off your elbow and or off your your limbs getting broken in half, like wrenching your arm behind your back and scratching your own head, and being like, I'm gonna get back on the mat and do it again, you know, or you know, just even the the things that I've had to endure, you know. I have a laundry list of injuries that I have had to sustain, yeah, and being able to get everybody knows, you know, I've torn both my knees out, you know, and four out of five ligaments say if you would have torn one more, you would have you'll never fight again. And I've been able to come back from from two knee uh surgeries that were very, very brutal. And all of the other laundry list of injuries that I've had, it takes a different type of person to say, I want some more. Yeah, I I broke my arm and I'm ready to get back in there and do it again. And I think that that is a little bit of a pain that's understated because people don't take into consideration that you can still win at the highest level and compete at the highest level, even though you tore your kneecap off, you know. Um but then you got the pain of, you know, getting choked out and and still wanting to to compete and do it again. So there's there's uh just a buckets full of pain that I'm just willing to take on for everybody instead of. Of you know, not doing it, but it's just because that's just who I am, and I think that that's how who a lot of fighters are. A lot of fighters have that type of mentality where they can endure, persevere, and still keep swimming.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 44:12

Yeah, well, uh, I think it's awesome that you're sharing that. And even the needle and the massage therapist, I think, is makes you uniquely relatable, right? Because it's hard to relate to like, yeah, most people, this is like the old famous quote, everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face, right? Well, you still have a plan when you get punched in the face, but other things, and you know, that just speaks to how our brain like tolerates pain and understands its different purposes because you have the kid who has leukemia and gets needles all the time, they don't bother him anymore. Yeah, right. Um, but I also, you know, I know from past conversations with you with your injuries and things like that, where you've been relatively reluctant to share them, like, because you've been through a lot. There's been a cost to your greatness, I will say.

SPEAKER_04 44:54

Yeah.

The Cost of Greatness

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 44:55

Um, and so even just mentioning those, I'm like, oh, sharing your struggles a little bit, because they're real. Aside from injuries, those could be included as well. But what has been your cost of greatness? Like, there are unquestionably things that people don't see that you have paid to be the greatest in your personal life, professional life, with your relationships, your physical health, your motherhood. What are those costs that people don't see?

SPEAKER_03 45:24

Oh, it's it's the biggest costs. It's my body, number one. My body, number one, is one of the greatest costs that it has um cost me to being great, you know, with all I I have been reluctant about my injuries because there's somebody who wants to expose those weaknesses on a national level. Yeah. And there's so much writing on the line that you're not going to give them, you know, the playbook on everything that's wrong with you. So that's one of the reasons. But aside from that, it has aside from it costing my body, it's costed me relationships. It's costed me uh quality time and um family time that I want that I'm not going to get back. It's cost me um all of the good things moving away from my family, not having a support system, losing and being in a failed relationship and being a single woman who's raising my daughter, um, you know, missing birthdays, missing holidays, missing really important things that I won't ever get back. But, you know, it's hard to have a balance when you're trying to be great. And you have to, in one sense, give all of yourself to this effort if you want to be successful. You can have your hand in so many baskets, but at what point will that cost you of as far as it being successful or not, or it being great or not? In order for me to be great, I have to put all of my time, devotion, dedication, attention, energy, love, passion into this thing. If I do that and I do it in the right way, then I can see it flourish. If I don't do that, it's not gonna flourish and it will fail. So I I have, I think before there was a lot of things that were misunderstood. People couldn't understand that. I would get in fights because people would think that I'm, you can miss, you don't have to go, you know, you you can uh just skip a practice. It's not that big of a deal. Or why can't you come to my party, or why can't you be here at this wedding, you know, and and think that it was a thing that I was doing to offend them.

SPEAKER_02 47:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:40

And I think nowadays they're starting to understand like, I'm too tired on my one rest day to go to this party and chop it up with a bunch of people. I would much rather stay home and recover and figure out what I need to do so that I can have a successful week again of training, so that I can go get locked inside this octagon. And you either take that for what it is and understand that, or you don't. Um, but it has been, I think, difficult to be able to find that balance. Like I said, I don't think that there is a balance when you're trying to be great and trying to achieve greatness. It's it's very difficult.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 48:14

Yeah, it's very wise. I I think you look at anybody at the top of their field, anybody at the apex, there is no such thing as balance, right? They didn't nobody at the top has actual balance, right? Even mentioning that is a very mature mindset that you know there's seasons of what balance looks like. Sometimes it's motherhood season, and for you, it's camps, right? Yeah, you know, sometimes when it's camp time, it that's priority number one, right? You're doing your thing, but you can go through those stages, and um, that's you know, that hit on my question a little bit earlier. As you've grown as a fighter, like your seasons change a little bit too. Um, so I love hearing that. But there there is no such thing as balance at the top, and and you know, you talked a little bit about people not understanding in there, which I understand because again, a lot of people don't understand. Few to nobody can relate to what you keep talking about, getting the octagon locked, locked in the octagon. That's like a real thing. You're in a cage and they lock it. Yeah, it's then the other person wants to hurt you, right? Um, nobody can relate to that, very few people, right? So, yeah, it makes it hard to understand like, well, you missed my daughter's birthday party. Like, I'm in recovery. Today's my job, actually, today is recover. That's my job, you know. Um and so it gets into that, like what people miss and what they don't understand.

The Amanda Nunes Upset, Self-Belief, and Flow State

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 49:28

And and I have this question about you have what I think many still consider to be in uh the greatest upset in UFC history, like one of the best Joe Rogan clips ever, his reaction to the. I mean, like people have seen this, and I think think that very few people see that reaction and realize that was you who caused that. Like nobody saw this coming. Right. You beat Amanda Nunez, the you know, what people consider to be the greatest of all time, and that you know, weight class, and you were like a massive underdog, objectively, a massive underdog and subjectively to everybody. And you didn't just like beat her on a decision, split decision Amazon. You made her tap, you submitted her, took her back. Like in our world, in the combat world, your world, that is like the ultimate, right? What didn't people understand? What didn't they see? What what was your mindset around that? Was I mean, obviously, you don't think you got it, wasn't luck, obviously, because the next time you fought it, you know, what she didn't humiliate you. Um, you proved yourself. What were people missing? Like, why was that such a big upset?

SPEAKER_03 50:34

Um, probably because of how much the machine had driven uh her to be this unbeatable force, I think. Um I don't want to say propaganda, because she had done so much for the sport and and obviously was considered the greatest of all time for a reason. She had taken out some big names in the sport. But I also think that their push of making her the greatest of all time is why I had such tip scales uh going into the fight, why it was a uh a big upset, because she was, you know, presented and propped up as this phenom who couldn't be beat. But I try not to play into the propaganda of what they've done and the experience that they've had and how big their record is and stuff like that. I've made those mistakes before. I've fought the 17-time Muay Thai world champion thinking that I had no business standing with her. And when I got inside that octagon, I had that girl running and backing up backwards and was literally like outstriking her on the feet.

SPEAKER_05 51:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:39

I've fought the, you know, world champion, Muay Thai girls that are 10 times taller than me. And I had them backing up the whole time as well. And so I think that for me, I'm like, I lost to these girls that in my head I thought I had no business fighting because on paper their resumes were so much bigger than mine. And once I get locked inside there and have them backing up, I start to think like, girl, you are a threat too. Like, believe in your abilities because you are just as dangerous. Just because you didn't start at three years old when they started, just because you don't have a hundred fights that they don't have or that you don't have, doesn't mean that you can't hang and compete with these girls. And I think once I had those losses and realized that none of that matters, none of that means anything. Obviously, you want to take it and put it in your filing cabinet, but you can't hinge, you know, your performance based on what their resumes have said. You have to focus on yourself and what you know you can do and believing and having faith in your own abilities. And so once I hit that, I said, I don't care who you are, I don't care what your name is, I don't care what your resume says, I will take it and I will put it in my filing cabinet. But I'm not going to, you know, stress myself out over the things that you've accomplished in your life because I need to give myself credit and realize that there's things that I've accomplished in my life that make me just as much of a threat, if not a bigger threat to you. And believing in my own capabilities is what helped me get into that fight where everyone is starting to look at me like already with the sad eyes and already with the eye of feeling sorry for you and already treating you like you've already lost the fight. And I think that that mannerisms or excuse me, that attitude that they gave to me only helped me be only helped me have such a sweet victory in the end. Because once I was able to be like, you guys were counting me out, nobody took me serious, I took myself serious, and that's what was I was able to display that night is is basically just the the power of self-belief and the power of knowing that you can do it even when no one else believes in you.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 53:57

Yeah, it's like a I mean, almost a David and Goliath story in the sense of what everybody's perception was. Yeah. But you had a plan. Right. I mean, dang near executed the plan to the minute almost. Is that right?

SPEAKER_03 54:10

Well, I think I have always had this kind of slow start in my fights where I let them kind of, it's not that I let them, but it's like they want to win too, and they're trying to win too. So it's almost like weather the storm and then you'll be able to get off what you need to get off. But in the beginning, I think that when I was down on the ground, I was like, I'm Gucci. I'm good. Like it might look to other people that it's a bad situation, but I'm very dangerous off my back. And I was threatening her off of my back to the point where I'm like, oh, I got this. And then going into the second round, I was like, this is nothing. Like, this is exactly what we planned for, and this is going, like you said, exactly the way that we knew it was going to go. I was so prepared for that moment and I had trained specifically for that look that once I'm seeing them, I'm like, it's almost like it's coming in slow motion because I'm like, dude, this is I had just the best training partners and the best camp ever to the point where I'm like, they prepared me so well that there wasn't anything that she was gonna show me that night that I hadn't already seen. And her power wasn't gonna be harder than the power that I was experiencing in my training camp either. So it was just I had a great night that night.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 55:22

Yeah, and what you just described hits hard. You talk about preparation, because when you said weathering the storm, I think everybody needs to realize it takes a lot of fitness to weather the storm, right? Like physical fitness to weather it. But then the I think the this is my life too. Prepare, prepare, prepare, flow.

SPEAKER_05 55:37

Right.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 55:38

And then you just said it, like it was happening in slow motion. Yeah. That's that's your frame rate goes up. You're in flow state, like instead of at 30 frames a second, you're at 120. Everything's like you can just pick every little detail out of these fine micro movements. That's cool. That's a state that a lot of people don't ever get to experience, and you can do amazing things when you're in it, but it's earned.

SPEAKER_03 55:58

It's a state that people have talked about that I didn't get to experience until that night. And it felt like quite literally uh tunnel vision.

SPEAKER_05 56:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 56:08

And you don't people say tunnel vision, you don't know what the tunnel vision is. But then once you're in that moment, it was tunnel vision, it was flowing like water, it was like having this focus that I've never had before, experienced before. And they said, Well, how did you do that? And it was like, it was almost as if it was going exactly the way that I wanted, but it was going so slow yet so fast that like that's tunnel vision. That's that focus that you only experience when you're in that flow state.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 56:35

Oh, I'm smiling so big inside right now. I love it. It's like, you know, I work hard to get there. Like, and this is my question for you is so now that you've experienced it, are have you been able to replicate it? Can you do it reliably now for fights?

SPEAKER_03 56:48

Um, I was able to to to do it again uh when I won my championship back, but it wasn't as um as narrowed in as I would have liked it to have been. So I I I can't, I haven't been able to get it quite as dialed in as I did that night in in 2021, in December of 2021. But I have been able to uh be hyper-focused like that. I think you're kind of always in that hyper-focused uh spot when you're getting locked inside the octagon. Yeah, but only when you win can I say that you're in that flow state, maybe. I don't know. It's it's it's hard to get into because everything has to go perfectly, but also not perfectly. There's so many things that are like, you know, leading up to the fight. You're like, why is this commissioner doing this? And why are they doing that? Or how can they step this way? That's so weird. This isn't how it's supposed to go. Nothing's going right on the outside, but everything went right on the inside. And then it's like, oh, well, the everything. So now when I get into these fights and I I look at things from what the commissioner's doing or the way that they ramp my hands or what somebody said to me, and I try not to let any of that have any sort of dictatorship on how the fight is gonna go. I try to say it doesn't matter. I used to be like, this guy's wearing yellow socks and he should be wearing red socks, you know, and that would bother me. That would literally bother me, or the way that my hair was braided, you know, I'd be like, oh, I have a hair out of place and now I'm not gonna win, you know? And so I used to be way more superstitious and hinge my attitude based on outside things, outside control, things I can't control. And now I've noticed, and I think that it's also just wisdom where I'm like, none of that matters. None of your accolades matter, none of the socks you're wearing matter, none of the butterflies that you did or didn't see that day matters, none of the signs matter, none of it matters. At the end of the day, the only thing that matters is, and the only thing that's for sure, without a doubt, you're gonna get locked inside that octagon, and that person's gonna come and try to take everything that you've worked for. That's it.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 58:48

Yep, that you work for your preparation. That's what you can't control going into it, right?

SPEAKER_03 58:52

Yes, your preparation. And and so to those people that don't understand that sometimes you just gotta get a you just have a job to do. You're not gonna make the birthday parties. It's not, it's not personal. I'm not trying to offend anybody. It's just I got bigger fish to fry. I think that should be my slogan. I got bigger fish to fry. I say that all the time. I really do. I think that's one of the slogans I say the most. I got bigger fish to fry. And it's true. It's like I can't worry about these small potatoes. I got bigger fish to fry.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 59:17

Yeah, like the sock colour. That's not a fish you need to fry. No.

SPEAKER_03 59:20

No, no, no. Or the little symbols and charms and diamonds that I cap in my backpack that I forgot to bring that day. Yeah.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 59:27

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, that's a that's a big sign of maturity when those go away and realize, well, here's what I can't control, here's what I can't.

SPEAKER_03 59:32

Yeah.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 59:33

That's what we're trying to teach our kids. Right. Literally, right? Like I know. What's what's in your sphere of influence, basically.

SPEAKER_03 59:38

And and that is one thing that I um when I talk to my daughter, I'm trying to tell her these things. And it's like she doesn't believe me, and she doesn't take me seriously or take into consideration how serious I am when I say these things. It's almost like this this lady's talking and she won't stop talking. I mean, it's just like, I promise you, these are the only things that really matter. You're gonna see, you know. And I think that it's only through her having to stumble and fail she realizes that, like, oh, I should have listened to mom. But no one wants to listen to mom. So mom's just, you know, annoying. And one day she's gonna understand that like I'm trying to help teach her. But like me, there might be a little bit of her needing to ram her head up against the wall a few times before she actually gets that, like, you know, I got her best interest and stuff.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:00:23

Yep. Sometimes they just have to experience to learn a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:26

That's what happened to me is nobody could tell me anything.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:00:29

Yeah, right. Well, you know, parents are a gentle teacher. Life's

Raising Iza and Passing Down Wisdom

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:00:32

a hard one, maybe.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:32

Yeah.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:00:33

Sometimes I like that. I I try to tell my kids that, but they still want to learn from life. That's okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:37

Yeah, I can't. I for some reason I have a control thing where I'm like, no, I'm telling you. Yeah. Yeah. I'm working on it.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:00:42

So you just mentioned Issa and raising her in in your unique orbit that you're in. What does Issa know about life? This is your daughter. What does Issa know about life uh that's different because of who her mom is? Like, and what do you wish that you would have known at her age that she knows now? Like, what where has that been better for her?

SPEAKER_03 1:01:04

I think what Issa knows is that her mom has a different job than a lot of moms that are that she's around, that she's surrounded by. And I think that she knows that I fight for a living. And there's been so many instances where she's asked me to stop fighting because she doesn't want me to be a fighter anymore. But then there's other instances, now that she's growing up a little bit older, she won't let me have sunflower seeds because she says I'm in fight camp. And so she's kind of turned into a little bit of a voice in the back of my head out loud, you know, where she kind of is like watching what I do and making sure that I'm staying on track. Before she would beg me not to go to practice and she would just beg me to hang out and, you know, be with her instead. And now she's kind of like, uh, no girl, you got practice, you know. And so yeah, she's helping me uh be accountable. I think that the other day I had her uh, I would I knew that I needed to get a workout in. And I went downstairs and I was like, You're gonna help me. And she's like, How? And I'm like, see that timer? You're gonna count my rest time, or you're gonna count my reps, and you're gonna count. And I was joking with her, and I said, You just put Alex Spanos out of a job.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:17

Um, and because she was being such a good trainer, you know, she was counting my reps and she was count keeping my time and my rest time, and she wasn't letting me go past my rest time, and she was keeping me on track. And I'm like, I wish that she would do this with me all the time, you know, because I I wish she wouldn't see it as a chore, and I wish that she would see it as like uh this is what me and mom do, you know, and and I hope to um continue to do that with her because I need her to understand how important it is to move your body and how we need to do it, you know. All these kids these days, they want to stay on the computers and the iPads and they want to be lazy and everything like that. And I'm like, dude, you don't even understand how like lucky you are to be able to train jujitsu twice a week and you know, have access to all of these great places and coaches that you could benefit from too, you know. Right now she's looking at it like a training, you know. But late later when she gets older, she's going to realize what a blessing it was to be able to have parents, both of us, that um, you know, practice martial arts. And I think that if I could you asked me the second part, what does she know back then?

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:03:27

What does she know that you wish she would have known when you were her age? Like, what has it given her that you didn't have?

SPEAKER_03 1:03:32

She's a lot smarter than I was uh at her age, I would say. And I don't know if it's because she's only been surrounded on my side with adults because I train all the at all of these places, and that's all she's ever been surrounded by. But I would say emotionally, she's eight, but she's like 18 in she acts, you know, much older than she is. And I don't like that because I still want her to be a little girl. I I I tell her every day, quit trying to grow up so soon. Quit trying to be older than you are, stay little, you know. But that's something that I didn't understand when I was growing up. I wanted to be older, I wanted to act older, I wanted to, you know, do all of the things that the older girls were doing. And I'm just I'm trying so hard to like, you know, get her to see that like there's something so beautiful about her being an eight-year-old little girl and that innocence that she has, and I just want her to hang on to that as long as possible. And and what did she what does she know that I didn't know when I was growing up? Probably that she could, if she wanted to, make a career out of being a martial artist, make a career out of owning a jujitsu academy, not necessarily needing to go to college if that's not what she chooses to do, but that she has other avenues that she could pursue with her physical ability or her, you know, vocal ability if that's what she wanted to. She could go into the arts way instead of going into like the conventional school way if that's what she chooses to do. But growing up for me, it was like you cannot be successful without a degree. You cannot be successful until you go to college, you cannot be successful until you do, you know, all of these things by the book. I did not. I was able to, you know, make a career without finishing college. And I think that for her, she already has an academy through her father that she could take over and be a business owner one day. She could, if she wanted to, become a professional fighter. But I don't want that for her. I'm just saying that she she could find a career in unconventional ways that most people probably would not consider. And I certainly didn't consider it when I was her age because I didn't even know what fighting was until I threw my first punch at 19 years old.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:05:49

Yeah, so I hear just a world of possibility for her. Literally anything at her fingertips. You mentioned you wouldn't want her to be a fighter. Yeah. Why?

SPEAKER_03 1:05:58

Because of how physically Demanding it is. But I've said this the other day, and I realized that maybe I was being wrong. I'm trying to put my experience on other people by saying, Oh, you don't want to be a fighter. You don't know what it does to your body. You, you know, I go through the laundry list of all of the injuries that I had, the costs. And then I realize, like, well, maybe these people are more athletic than you were. Maybe they will understand their bodies better than you were. Maybe they won't have these laundry lists of uh injuries that you've experienced. So I can't even say that anymore because I do have these problems that I've experienced through injury, but just because I had them doesn't mean that they're necessarily gonna have them. You know? Um, so I think that it's becoming more acceptable to be uh a martial artist and to to train and to do jujitsu. And back when I was doing it, it was not acceptable. It was very rare. And, you know, I I remember my dad getting on his knees and crying and begging me to quit. And nowadays it's like there's so many dads that are trying to push their daughters to become the next greatest thing since sliced bread in the sport. And I think that it's becoming more of a normal thing where fathers are encouraging their daughters to learn how to defend themselves and defend themselves in a better way than maybe like a taekwondo or a karate, something that's actually real, like jujitsu, and that could be life-saving for them in the future if they need it. And that is more normal nowadays. And I think that for her, it's like if she wants to do that, she absolutely should, but she absolutely, no matter what, needs to learn how to defend herself. And that part isn't and hasn't been up for negotiation.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:07:43

Yeah, with my daughters, I feel that they, you know, and they love jujitsu, and I'm like, that's really what I really want you to get out of it is like some physical coordination, some knowledge and ability, and some self-confidence.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:54

Right.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:07:55

Um, but you said something in there that I thought was really mature and like saying, like, oh, you're projecting your values onto them because it's actually kind of one of the great equations of life for all things. What's the thing that I want? And first we have to define what that is,

Are You Willing to Pay the Price?

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:08:09

right? How much does it cost? And that's what you're able to really tell people. Like, this is what it costs me. That's that was a question I asked you, right? Physically, emotionally, relationship-wise. There's a cost to it, but then this is the question we can't answer for people is are you willing to pay that? This could be a car. What car is it? How much does it cost? Am I willing to pay it? This is being a UFC champion. This is what it costs. Yours might be a little bit different, but here's some things to think about. But this is the big one. Are you willing to pay it?

SPEAKER_05 1:08:34

Yeah.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:08:34

And that's the one that's like, you can't answer that for people. You just have no idea what the end car or the UFC championship holds for them. Is it worth the squeeze?

SPEAKER_03 1:08:43

You know, I'll give you an example and I won't name any names, but uh a young man came up to me and he said, I see what you have. I see, and and he did not phrase this right. And I'm like uh going exactly the way that it came across. I see your house and I see that you're rich and uh the car that you have, and I want that. And so I'm gonna take a fight and I'm gonna be a fighter too. And I said, You're doing it for the wrong reasons, you're gonna get hurt. And if you don't have the drive, the dedication, the patience, this is not something that happens overnight. Sure. This is something that requires years and years and years of training. And you just thinking that it's just gonna show up to you on your doorstep just because you see that I have it, you have no idea how long the cost, the time, the dedication, the patience, the the things that I've lost, the things that I have gone through in order to get to where I'm at right now, you're just comparing and you can't do that. And I said, please don't do this. You're going to get hurt. He went and did not listen to me. And he got inside that Arctagon and he got folded like a lawn chair, KO'd in 30 seconds, never trained again, never stepped foot in the gym again, and completely quit. And I'm like, you know, that type of mentality, I think, is where people don't give me the respect or the credit that I feel like I deserve. They just think that, oh, well, because she has it, I can do it too. And it's like, you're not taking into consideration all of the things, the sweat equity that I've put in to be able to have my very first car that I've bought. Yeah. You know, and I think that that maybe needs to be considered a bit more when these kids are looking at these fighters, being like, oh, well, if they can do it, I could do it too. It's like it's not that easy. I I want to encourage people to do that before I would say, oh no, don't do it, stay in school because of look at all the things that I've done. But now I'm thinking, yeah, I'm not gonna project the injuries that I have uh had and what I've had to go through in order to get what I have. But I will say this if you don't have the dedication that I had, then you're never gonna make it. Because I was quite literally and still to this day am obsessed with this sport. And the passion that I have for this sport is maybe not uh you can't see it as visually as much as it is in my heart. And if you don't have that, you're never gonna make it.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:11:07

Oh, for sure. I sh I really resonate with that obsession thing. So I have that obsession with my results, which is there's this common thread, and you sort of highlighted it here that's like, and you have this in spades, which is in 2021, you became an overnight success.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:22

Yeah.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:11:23

But in reality, that started when you were 19.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:25

Right.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:11:25

Right. It was more than a decade in the making, but all of a sudden nobody knew you or saw you or whatever. And then all of a sudden, boom, you're in everybody's living room. Right. And it's the same for me, with like all of a sudden it's like, oh, I can't believe this, that, the other. You're you know, like, well, the same thing, like the results speak for themselves, but you know, that for me was 25, 30 years of work to get to that point, you know. And so um, it's interesting that that that overnight success mentality, like, I'm gonna go do this, and you know, I'm the same way with people. I'm like, yeah, if you share the passion and obsession that I do, and obsession I honestly think is kind of a bad word in some ways. Like, even when I say it, it like it's the right word, but I don't love that that's what it is. Yeah. Um, but if you share that, then yeah, you you could do what I did or what you did. Yeah. Um, but not everybody has them. They don't have the writing there, maybe the necessarily the same ingredients that you do. So maybe the end product is a little bit different, you know. Um, but I think that that's everywhere in that, like, oh, overnight success. I want you did it, I can do it. Like, yeah, but it's gonna take decades.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:28

Yeah.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:12:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:29

Well, it's the the society that we live in, everything wants fast, fast, fast. You know what I mean? I don't want to put in the work, I don't want to put in the time, I just want it because I want it, you know. And I think that that's a little bit of uh immaturity and maybe like a young standpoint is that that's what people like and with the with the more of a younger mentality think. But I think that as they get older than and wiser, they realize that that's not exactly how the world works, you know. Nobody's gonna hand anything

Defining Your Prime

SPEAKER_03 1:12:54

to you. You have to go out there and work for it. And it doesn't happen overnight. They might have seen it overnight, but it's something like you said, that has been decades in the making.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:13:02

So that leads me to this, uh, let's say like our final question. And I want to I want you to reflect and define on your prime. Is it now? Was it before? Is it what you thought it would be when you were 25 years old? What does your prime mean to you? And if you're not in it yet, what's it gonna look like? How are you getting there? Just let's talk about your prime.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:23

So I think that, you know, when I was fighting for that championship, they said that I was in my prime then. And then when I took some other fights, they said that I was in my prime then. So I've had, let's see, four fights since then. Let's see, yeah, one, two, three, three fights since then. And in all of those fights, I felt like I was in my prime. And maybe it goes back to my immaturity mental, where I'm like, oh, my next fight is gonna be for me when I'm in my prime. I still feel like I'm there. I still feel like I am close to still being in my prime. I don't want to give up that idea that I'm past my prime. Um, but other people would probably see it differently. I think it just goes based off of like how I'm feeling. And of course, with all the injuries and all of the surgeries that I've had and stuff like that, maybe I'm not in my prime anymore. But I think maybe for me, prime is a state of mind. Yes. And I could convince myself that I still am in my prime. And then I don't have to try very hard to convince myself that I'm still in my prime either. I'm literally like, yep, I'm still in my prime. And and so I I think for me, my prime is just how am I feeling? How am I performing? How am I training? And am I training well? Is my body feeling good? Am I recovering just as well? Do I still feel fast? And do I still feel like a threat in my mind when I'm in the gym and submitting people? I'm like, boom, I'm more of a threat. I'm more of a threat now than I was before. I'm only getting better and better with time. Like I feel like I'm still getting better. I'm still learning. There's still so much that I haven't been able to showcase, and there's still so many skills that I haven't been able to uh show the world that I'm capable of doing. And so I'm like, I'm I'm I have so much more to give. And I think that that's why I still want to keep fighting because I know that my window of opportunity is is closing in on me. I know I have a short amount of time to jump through this window before it completely shuts. And I'm not ready to give that up. And right now it's been a bit difficult for me because I'm pursuing other avenues and I'm, you know, doing things on the back end that I want to pursue when my fighting career is over. And it's kind of taking away from my consistency and my training and being able to take a fight again. But I'm trying to balance that as far as that that's a funny word because we talked about them there being no balance. I'm trying to figure out a way that I can do uh my job consistently, I can, you know, be present for my daughter, and I can also continue to do this back-end career stuff that I want to do and being able to find a way to make all of that work so that I can get back in the octagon again. Because the desire to fight is small. And when a fighter says, I want to fight, that is something that you have to strike while the iron's hot because you don't always want to fight all the time. But right now I have this desire where I I do want to fight. I want to fight again. I want to get in the octagon and I want to um get my hand raised. When I get my hand raised, I'm gonna come back to this moment and I'm gonna say, I told you guys, you guys didn't believe me, but like I I want to fight, I really do. And I I think that that moment is fleeting sometimes, you know. After you get, you know, your butt kicked and and you're waking up from surgery from, you know, having these lacerations fixed, you the first thing is in in your mind is I can't wait to get back in there again. You know what I mean? You have to give it time for that to come back again. But I gave myself that time, I gave myself that break and and let those surgeries, you know, come full circle where I'm feeling better now than I did before. And the injuries helped me to feel like I'm not waking up in pain anymore. And I'm able to bend my elbow now and I'm able to stretch it out all the way. And because I feel that way, I'm like, it's time. It's time for me to go again. It's time for me to get back inside the octagon. And I have to do it now because I'm not gonna be able to do it later. You know, I only have a short time to give my gift, and I need to do it now because then I'm gonna really be you're yeah, I'm I'm gonna really be trying to convince you that I'm in my prime when I'm 50, and I won't be for sure then.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:17:17

Well, I think you just hit a lot of it right there because uh I people hear prime and I think they immediately go to physical.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:22

Yeah.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:17:23

Like, but it that's not it. And you just tied that all together so beautifully, which is there were things physically that have changed from 25 to where you're at now, but you're a better fighter.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:33

Yeah.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:17:34

And that's because of all the other things that go into it. The c and I think a lot of people can think of the things that you at 25 versus now, you're better at them now physically, even than you were then, because you have more self-regulation, emotional maturity. You can forgive yourself faster, like you talked about your first loss. Yeah. If you lost today, you'd be bummed, but it wouldn't be the same, it wouldn't throw you into a big depression, it wouldn't have as much of an impact.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:55

No.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:17:55

I think also because of that, though, you hit on the things you're able to focus on your number one priority. Because you're right, there's not a balance, but you're able to at least fit the puzzle pieces together.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:05

Right.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:18:06

You know, you've got your whatever those, however, those priorities fall, you can do more with each of them because of the capacity that you built in other areas. So you can fight and be a mom and work on your subsequent like fallback, your backup plan. So um, you know, I do think that all those things are possible. And you're just you're the exemplifying that as like, yeah, I would say your your prime is coming.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:28

Yeah.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:18:29

You know, like you're gonna crush it in the octagon, you're gonna be able, you're doing incredible work with your, you know, like announcing and calling fights, and like maybe that's your future career, who knows? Right. Um, and then you know, Issa's got a present and in tuned mom. Yeah. It's pretty incredible.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:45

Thank you. Thank you. I'm trying. It's it's not uh it's not easy, but I and again, uh, with the whole strength, what does strength look like? It's very difficult for me to ask for help, but I think that I'm getting better at it. And I think that that is the only way that I'm gonna be able to achieve what I want to achieve or what I feel like I know I'm capable of doing is by getting that help because I can't do it all on my own. And as much as I want to be able to do it all on my own, just so that I can say, I did it all on my own, and I didn't ask for any help, and I was able to get it done so that I didn't have to bother anyone. Yeah, I know that at some point I'm gonna have to bend the knee and ask for a little bit of support. And I think that that's also okay, that that's a beautiful thing, that I can be able to call on my community to be able to help support me because it they and I've said it before, I'll say it again, it does take a village and it's not a one-man operation. It's a it's a community project in order to get inside of that octagon and and perform and and to get into that flow state. And the only way that you do it is with the help of your trusted circle. And and that's how you find success.

Rapid Fire Questions

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:19:56

I love that. All right, Julie. Are you ready for some rapid fire questions?

SPEAKER_03 1:19:59

I think so.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:20:00

These are not from me, by the way. Okay, these are uh audience-driven rapid fire questions. Okay, you're ready for this? Yes, strength or endurance?

SPEAKER_03 1:20:10

Endurance.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:20:11

Sauna or cold plunge? Sana. I knew that answer from you. You didn't have to ask. I've seen them both. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:17

You saw me turn into a baby.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:20:19

Um steak or sushi?

SPEAKER_03 1:20:21

Steak.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:20:22

Oh, that one surprised me a little bit. Morning workout or evening workout?

SPEAKER_03 1:20:27

That one's tough. Um morning, but I love working out at night too.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:20:32

Okay. So both which is your real life.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:35

Yes.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:20:35

Ooh. Coffee or electrolytes?

SPEAKER_03 1:20:38

Coffee, but I know that electrolytes are probably more important, but I just I can't. I gotta have coffee.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:20:44

That's fair. Sleep or training?

SPEAKER_03 1:20:49

Sleep?

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:20:49

Okay. I can't have that without the other. Yeah. Ooh, that's a good one. Jiu-jitsu or boxing?

SPEAKER_03 1:20:56

Uh jujitsu. Jiu-jitsu. That's hard though, because I love boxing, but like if I would rather get like time on the mat with Luis Claudio or locked inside the ring with Talia Halverson, like I'm choosing Louise all day. Okay. Okay.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:21:10

Different reasons. Yes. Uh beach or mountains?

SPEAKER_03 1:21:12

Beach.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:21:13

Okay. Easy. Ooh. Cheat meal or cheat day?

SPEAKER_03 1:21:18

Cheat meal or cheat day. Cheat meal.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:21:21

Okay. Like that. Early bedtime or late night?

SPEAKER_03 1:21:26

Gee, I'm a night owl.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:21:27

You are.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:28

I'm a night owl. Uh yeah, so the night one.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:21:31

Late night.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:31

Yeah.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:21:32

Okay. Last one. A million dollars now or 10 UFC wins later?

SPEAKER_03 1:21:38

Oh, 10 UFC wins.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:21:40

Okay. Yes. It's not about the money, huh? No. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:43

Can you imagine how much more richer you would be after 10 UFC fights? How much more fun? How much more legacy? There you go. Yeah, absolutely. Love that.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:21:51

Yeah, that's so true. Okay. Well, Julie, I cannot wait to follow you in your next camp as you get ready to go scratch that urge, that itch to fight, um, and continue to kill it in all aspects of your life. Very proud of you.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:05

Thank you so much.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:22:06

Yes, thank you for being here. Thanks for your time today.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:08

Of course, it's a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.

Dr. Cameron Chesnut 1:22:10

Absolutely. If you have any questions or topics you would like me to explore further, please leave them in the comments. I read them all and they often help shape the future conversations here. I also want to be clear that the views shared on this podcast are my own and are not associated with or representative of my clinical teaching affiliation with the University of Washington School of Medicine, nor should this be taken as individual medical advice. Thank you for spending your time with me. I appreciate you being here, and I will see you on the next episode.